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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

So 20xx: Self ID has passed. What next?

227 replies

MiladyBerserko · 07/01/2022 20:38

What happens after the legal definition of woman has changed so that any male can say they are one?

Will this be the end game and what on earth will Stonewall do then?

OP posts:
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 08/01/2022 23:16

[quote barleybadminton]@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I'm not really sure what that blogpost has to do with the matter at hand except to note they repeatedly use the word Intersex, although it does also highlight the difficulties in assigning sex based on karotype testing because by that measure the author of that piece would be assigned male.[/quote]
Go selectively blind when we discuss the emotional and medical needs of children with medical issues, do you.

ArabellaScott · 08/01/2022 23:17

If there is a silver lining to the present onslaught on the rights of women and safeguarding of children, it is the radicalisation, consciousness raising and rallying of women, in a way we haven’t seen since the suffragettes.

Aye.

Barbarantia · 08/01/2022 23:23

I agree with @barleybadminton. Nothing much would happen when TWAW after self-id.

For centuries "no one" noticed that women were missing from public life. Only women did. When TWAW, the order of the world would simply be restored and honestly "no one" would notice. Some angry rich witches might become difficult but that's to be expected. And dutifully ignored.
I think that's what's happening now in the other countries which have full adoption.
This is the way the world ends,
Not with a bang but a whimper.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 08/01/2022 23:25

Barbarantia

Nail hit with precision and accuracy!

PermanentTemporary · 08/01/2022 23:46

I used the word lie and I meant it.

Sex is an objective reality that exists from conception and can be observed, almost always accurately, long before birth. A glance at genitals on an ultrasound screen or at birth will usually be an accurate observation because genitals are an external indicator of a developmental process. Foetuses, embryos and babies are male or female and nothing can change this.

'Assignation' is a deliberate linguistic move to make sex sound like a fluid, changeable, possibly right, possibly wrong thing. It is not.

The social significance of sex is of course another thing entirely. But to base trans liberation on the idea that sex is fluid, changeable, unknowable and some kind of individual style choice is to base it on sand.

TurquoiseBaubles · 09/01/2022 00:43

ffs, I see barley is another poster who is determined to tell us we can't tell boy babies from girl babies, or women from men.

How the fuck has the human race evolved to this?

TurquoiseBaubles · 09/01/2022 00:45

Bear with me while I do an experiment here. I see my first post on this thread has been deleted. Thankfully barley saved it for me, so I'm going to post it in paragraphs and see which was delete worthy. I suspect it was the last sentence.

TurquoiseBaubles · 09/01/2022 00:46

It will be like Ireland. More than 10% of the occupants of women's prisons will be male. There will be no protection of sex as a characteristic. Anyone from the age of 16 (or younger) will be able take hormones and have their breasts chopped off, as well as forcing their parents to use their new names and whatever pronouns they have made up that day. All school toilets will be mixed sex; girls will not be allowed to speak about their bodies or their health issues or the violence perpetrated against them.

TurquoiseBaubles · 09/01/2022 00:46

This reply has been deleted

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TurquoiseBaubles · 09/01/2022 00:46

Stonewall may welll go where the money is. I won't make any suggestions or I would be deleted.

TurquoiseBaubles · 09/01/2022 00:48

So it could be the "chopped off" in the first paragraph or the "I won't make suggestions" in the last.

Thank you for your patience Grin

SunshinePiggy · 09/01/2022 02:53

@flyingoink good God I've just googled symphisiotomy and pubiotomy. How had I never heard of these procedures before?!

FlyingOink · 09/01/2022 04:45

@ArabellaScott

Scotland had Magdalene Institutes/laundries.
Good point.
FlyingOink · 09/01/2022 04:48

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PonyPatter44 · 09/01/2022 11:17

If sex is just "assigned" at birth, why don't midwives in countries/ cultures where boys are more preferred, just assign all babies as male at birth? It would save a lot of trauma and heartbreak. Hmm, i may have just solved the problem of female infanticide in developing countries. I await my Nobel Prize..

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 09/01/2022 11:54

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FlyingOink · 09/01/2022 13:06

If you silence and disempower the women, who have got rather uppity over the last 120 years, then you can get access to the children.

Exactly. And even those men who don't want to exploit children generally have less sympathy for them, less contact with them, and less understanding of what they need. Generally.

So when this is happening plenty of suitably woke beardybros will claim that not allowing eleven years olds full adult agency in all matters is patronising. And plenty of male MPs will brush off concerns as overreaction.

The thing is,we could have this happen at the same time as a massive backlash in societal attitudes to divorce, homosexuality, single mothers, etc. It's perfectly possible. Gen Z are already very different to millennials or Gen X - they don't drink or smoke much, they don't have much sex, they spend more time online, consume porn but often have quite conservative attitudes, the boys are quite openly sexist, etc.
I'm sure I saw a survey about male engineers that stated boomer men were much less bothered by a female boss than millennial men.

We can never assume gains made will be kept forever automatically. And children will always need to be protected, and some bastard will always try to argue that we don't need to worry about it, but then blame women when kids are abused. "Where was the mother?"

A bit like we're not supposed to worry about men (in women's spaces or in general) because NAMALT but when something happens it's "what did she expect?" (A view particularly held by the young these days...)

VelvetChairGirl · 09/01/2022 14:15

@MiladyBerserko

What happens after the legal definition of woman has changed so that any male can say they are one?

Will this be the end game and what on earth will Stonewall do then?

Protests thats what and lots of them. and thats me being polite it took the suffragettes a lot more then that to be heard, violence, vandalism, arson, hunger strikes etc
fromorbit · 09/01/2022 15:49

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GCMM · 09/01/2022 16:13

Hilarious that some people think that animals don't know what they are because they don't understand human names for them. When was the last time a sparrow tried to mate with a seagull? Never that's when, because all animals know what they are.

RVN123 · 09/01/2022 17:04

@TurquoiseBaubles

ffs, I see barley is another poster who is determined to tell us we can't tell boy babies from girl babies, or women from men.

How the fuck has the human race evolved to this?

Yes. But have faith. 100'000 years from now (if man is still alive on this planet), they will still know which ones bring the eggs and which ones bring the sperm. I know that's upsetting for some people, but 'them's the facts'. It didn't take long for the old 'intersex' argument to rear its head did it?
FlyingOink · 09/01/2022 17:14

fromorbit

Are you offering odds?

Mummyoflittledragon · 09/01/2022 18:17

That was an interesting experiment @TurquoiseBaubles. I have noticed quoted posts often don’t get deleted. I quoted the one you said would go for the same reason…

As for what will happen. Gosh I really hope you’re correct @fromorbit. With so much money invested by incredibly and powerful trans people, I’m not so sure it will play out like that. However, the genie is out of the bottle now. I just hope young women can start to understand just how much they’ve been exploited to start this backlash.

Leafstamp · 09/01/2022 19:50

What did @fromorbit’s post say? Can someone DM me?

fromorbit · 09/01/2022 19:55

@FlyingOink

fromorbit

Are you offering odds?

Betting shops are giving the Tories a 60% chance of having a majority 30% of Conservative or Labour minority government and a 15% chance of a Labour majority government. So take your choice.

Personally I think there is a solid chance things would play out roughly as I suggest if Labour gains power simply based on one thing. The Tories sooner or later tend to retake power. The pro-women faction within the Tories is growing. Even bigger though is the faction which doesn't care about women's rights, but will use anything to weaken their opponents.

Labour is definitely standing on an law and order platform. They are going to target VAWG if you do that you end up with more Trans criminals because they tend to do VAWG offences. All you need then is unscrupulous right wing media which we have.

However, what may even be more likely is any self Id bill failing to get there. Any Labour administration is most likely to have a tiny majority via a coalition. All it would take is a handful of Labour MPs to rebel and for the lord to pass amendments to neuter the bill and it will be screwed.

I totally think that a self id bill would end up in controversy and there would be public protests. Because there have been at every stage so far. They wouldn't need to be big ones all you need is publicity - do a bunch of XR type stuff. That might be enough to get dubious Labour MPs to rebel or to create a crazy media moment. You get someone attacking a random radfem on camera in 2021 and the media will go crazy. Look at what they did with the JKR doxing stuff.

Reality is a bunch of Labour MPs secretly back Rosie. They won't surface until they have to and all they need is minimal cover to rebel. They will say we want a helpful compromise and gut the bill effectively.

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