So 20xx: Self ID has passed. What next?

[MiladyBerserko]

What happens after the legal definition of woman has changed so that any male can say they are one?

Will this be the end game and what on earth will Stonewall do then?

Just a head's up for those who don't know. We aren't allowed to suggest that there is any parallel between the current issues and possible changes to age of consent, or refer to it in any way at all. Posts will be deleted if there is an implication that there is any demand for removal of safeguarding or changes to consent laws.

ponypatter's post has been deleted; I expect ANewCreation's will be too.

@ANewCreation

Like you, ponypatter I think it would be age next, particularly with regard to consent laws.

If, in future, all people 'are who they say they are' and a child can be deemed capacitous in giving consent to medical transition which will make permanent, sterilising changes to their body because they 'know' their own gender identity is that of the opposite sex and it is their right to have a body in line with their identity, the pressure will then be on to lower other age of consent legislation.

Piercings and tattoos would be first and an easy win. 'I can consent to top surgery but not having my ears pierced? That's ridiculous!'

Then, I imagine, sex would be the next consent law to come under pressure - because a child just before tanner stage 2 of puberty who 'knows who they are' in terms of their identity can surely similarly 'know' who they want to have sex with. 🤮

I sincerely hope gillick competency will not be given to an under 18 for these types of medical procedures.

@Leafstamp

Great idea for a thread, depressing though it may be!

I guess the logical thing is for Stonewall to move onto the ‘Q+’. I wonder who will be found to be included in this group of people?

Kinksters, transagers, furries, otherkin, fictionkin, assorted nonbinaries with invented pronouns, and/or MAPs?

I have no idea. Mostly because I have no idea who could count as Q who isn't already covered by one of their other four letters.

I'm calling it now:
Stonewall will start advocating for people with Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), eg. multiple personalities. There is already a huge group of young people on TikTok/Youtube who claim to have this and it's almost a total overlap with genderhavers. Obviously the 'activism' they do has nothing to do with mental health or recovery, it's more like trans activism lite - using fashion to signal which of your identities is taking hold, cute pronouns and emojis, etc. We might soon see a pivot into 'talk therapy is literally conversion therapy' for them

When the trans cause is deemed passe, 'D' will be added to LGBT, there will be calls for 'multiple' passports and ID, DID sufferers will be retconned into gay history somehow, and people will be 'helpfully' nudged into switching pronouns at certain intervals. The way these teens theorise about it now is that each 'alter' (personality, someone could have many hundreds) has its own gender identity and sexuality, so atm the whole thing is like trans activism to an extreme with an even flimsier base in reality.

I know of a fashion YouTuber/influencer who switched to 'any pronouns' and then almost immediately started down the DID route as well, and treated the whole thing like coming out as gay: baked a 'congratulations on your DID diagnosis' cake and everything. Welcome to the new zeitgeist

@TurquoiseBaubles

The sports will come in the future. Already in schools self-id means boys can play in girl's teams if they say they are girls. The rest is true already.

Very, very few people in Ireland can speak up. The population is small, so speaking anonymously is difficult. Self-id is law. Cases like Maya's would not win in Irish courts.

The rest is true really? Are the pubs in Dublin fully of men prancing about in slutty clothes and yelling at people? And girls arereally forbidden to talk about their bodies? How are the new reproductive health services in Ireland managing then?

Isn't the truth that nothing has really changed and most people haven't even noticed? Just like they haven't in Argentina, who have had self ID for 12 years and the many other countries and US states with self ID policies. There are not mass women's movement calling for these laws to be repealed, the toilets aren't full of abusive men, women still exist and many of those countries including Ireland have strong feminist movements. The policies have been a success wherever they have been introduced enabling trans people to have their gender respected with no significant social consequences or public objection. There is no sign in any of the countries where self ID is the law of any calls to have this repealed, and other countries are looking at their success and drawing up plans to do the same thing. Barely a week goes by without news of a new country strengthening trans rights in some way - this is clearly the way the world is going but it will not result in the lurid fantasies on this thread, it will be much like it is now and the vast majority of people will neither notice nor care.

It's all so fucking terrifying and disturbing. I feel ashamed to admit it but any time I come into this chat topic I mentally flee and check out as it makes me so so sick and angry.

As a survivor of sexual abuse and dv, both as an adult and as a child, women only spaces can sometimes be the only thing that gets me out the door to places.

Shared sex changing, sex offenders with penises being able to state they are women and enter women only spaces..... It all fills me with so much fear and rage.

I just don't know what I can do though or how I can help. It feels like swimming against the tide and knowing you're drowning.

The phrase "If you're not angry then you're not paying attention" always comes to mind with this issue in my mind. So many people seem to just shrug, or stay button lipped so as not to anger the woke.

What will happen with job roles that can currently state male or female only for safeguarding reasons?! As someone who has accessed refuge services and who has a child with additional needs this part of the issue is also a massive worry for me.

what on earth will Stonewall do then?

In order to keep funds flowing in, and more importantly keep CEOs in bonuses, they'll find some new "disadvantaged" group. Furries?

You tell yourself that barley. Though I see you haven't mentioned prisons or mixed toilets in schools, or 16 year olds being able to id, or criminals being able to hide convictions behind gender changes.

There are fewer trans people here (so far) so many people haven't noticed, but the HSE, the government, the DoE, the guards and pretty much every public body has gone full scale TWAW so it is pretty much impossible to speak out.

Young so-called feminists seem to be still patting themselves on the backs about abortion and same sex marriage while telling older women (those older women who have been fighting for women's rights their entire lives) to STFU.

Ireland is very small. To stand up takes a very special type of bravery in a small community; so far no-one I know has dared to.

By the way, we don't have an equality act as you do. The nine grounds in the Irish Equal Status Act are: gender, marital status, family status, age, disability, sexual orientation, race, religion, and membership of the Traveller community.

Here is a wonderful PDF explaining it all www.ihrec.ie/download/pdf/ihrec_equal_status_rights_explained.pdf

Gender includes (apparently) whether you are a man or a woman or transgender. The combination of this and self-id means that there is so much conflation of sex and gender there is no right to any single sex anything any more.

Argentina has several admirable feminist organisations fighting gender ideology. Including Feministas Radicales Independientes de Argentina, Fundacion Alika Kinan and Union de Mujeres de la Argentina. There is fightback.

If you want to know what happens under self id, look at the countries which have already introduced it. No dystopia, no apocalypse, women still exist and are fine, the state is not assigning neo genders to children. Sorry to interrupt your sci fi story, but maybe get a grip on reality.

@TurquoiseBaubles

You tell yourself that barley. Though I see you haven't mentioned prisons or mixed toilets in schools, or 16 year olds being able to id, or criminals being able to hide convictions behind gender changes.

There are fewer trans people here (so far) so many people haven't noticed, but the HSE, the government, the DoE, the guards and pretty much every public body has gone full scale TWAW so it is pretty much impossible to speak out.

Young so-called feminists seem to be still patting themselves on the backs about abortion and same sex marriage while telling older women (those older women who have been fighting for women's rights their entire lives) to STFU.

Ireland is very small. To stand up takes a very special type of bravery in a small community; so far no-one I know has dared to.

It's been nearly seven years and you concede that many people haven't even noticed. Perhaps that's why no-one is speaking out. Because it isn't actually affecting people's lives. The kind of apocalyptic hyperbole on this thread may be enough to scare people about change to come, but where those changes have happened, and none of the dire predictions have come to pass, it becomes it bit more difficult to maintain any real opposition to them. If it doesn't affect their every day life most people don't really care that much about things and this is not something that affects people's day to day lives - as you admit, most people have barely noticed it in almost seven years. You can't fool all of the people all of the time and all that.

@TurquoiseBaubles brilliant post. I never thought about it precisely like that before. It was families who put their daughters and sisters in the homes.

I'm in NI where (mainly) men are still denying women the right to an abortion even though it is the law.

Yes that’s the bloody point!! A lot of The women most affected by this are also the most powerless - those in refuges, those in prison. Only the other day on AIBU it was suggested that it’s fine to have men in wine a prisons becatse the threat of being raped would be a deterrent or served women right for committing crimes

That’s why parroting TWAW is a luxury belief. It’s very easy not to to worry about women in prisons or refuges or who use domestic violence services or rape survivors when one thinks that these things will never affect one personally

One of the things I noticed in the consultation about the GRA changes was the use of 'sex assigned at birth'. I notice these lies in official documents and moving into common use. Yes I extrapolate that to other lies that could be put into circulation because if that can, something that everyone knows is not true, then anything can.

@PermanentTemporary

One of the things I noticed in the consultation about the GRA changes was the use of 'sex assigned at birth'. I notice these lies in official documents and moving into common use. Yes I extrapolate that to other lies that could be put into circulation because if that can, something that everyone knows is not true, then anything can.

But sex is assigned by society at birth. It may be assigned on the basis of observation in most cases, but it's neither a lie nor grammatically incorrect to use the word assigned.

It is possible to say 'gender' is assigned. But not 'sex'. Sex is a reality that is observed, your or my or anyone else's opinion on it or feeling about it just makes no odds at all. Sex is determined at conception and will not alter, ever. You don't 'assign' sex any more than you 'assign' age to someone, it's a simple language error.

No, female people are not fine, in many countries female people are trying to be heard that they are not fine, it does not work for them, it is not a lovely utopia of peace and equality - but rather like here, right on this thread, no matter how women try to explain, someone will come along and deny reality at them.

Think it's called gaslighting.

This approach does not work. These problems are not going away. This is not winning hearts and influencing people. Female people are getting louder and increasingly fed up, they will just fight harder and harder to be heard, to make their problems known, and to force the western world to get a grip on the fact that no things are not ok so long as male people are happy and female people just have to suck up alternative facts and pretending for the sake of male people.

This isn't equality, it's just male supremacy. It isn't inclusion, it's just male supremacy. And a whole lot of denial on the part of some political extremists based on an inability to cope with a reality in which other people's needs require compromise and tolerance, and it cannot always be all and only about them.

@ArabellaScott

It is possible to say 'gender' is assigned. But not 'sex'. Sex is a reality that is observed, your or my or anyone else's opinion on it or feeling about it just makes no odds at all. Sex is determined at conception and will not alter, ever. You don't 'assign' sex any more than you 'assign' age to someone, it's a simple language error.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Humans assign things to categories - those categories may exist in nature, but it is humans who choose to give them relevence. If I see a bird I might assign it to the species of sparrow, based on my observation, but it doesn't know it's a sparrow. It takes a human to name and assign it as one.

Personally I think either could be correct, but it's certainly not a lie to say assigned at birth, just a diferent way of saying things - and one that is inclusive to people with DSDs so handy all round.

Fuck Stonewall. They remind me of creepy men who try to pester you for sex or attention.

We live in a morally corrupt and sick society.

In my head I'd be bold enough to walk into men's toilets. But I wouldn't.
If self-ID passes in England/Wales then we would have to follow the lead of Irish and Scottish witches and keep fighting.

@barleybadminton

Personally I think either could be correct, but it's certainly not a lie to say assigned at birth, just a diferent way of saying things - and one that is inclusive to people with DSDs so handy all round.

It is not inclusive to people with DSDs.

Let me repeat that for the hard of reading: it is NOT inclusive of people with congenital conditions of sexual development.

People with ambiguous genitalia are a minority of a minority, and when such a baby is born, the baby is karyotyped to determine what her or his sex actually is, and identify what her or his medical needs will be.

It has been acknowledged that "assigning" babies didn't work out well, and that the factual reality needed to be discovered.