So 20xx: Self ID has passed. What next?

[MiladyBerserko]

What happens after the legal definition of woman has changed so that any male can say they are one?

Will this be the end game and what on earth will Stonewall do then?

@GCMM

Hilarious that some people think that animals don't know what they are because they don't understand human names for them. When was the last time a sparrow tried to mate with a seagull? Never that's when, because all animals know what they are.

Cross species mating is actually quite common: daily.jstor.org/the-surprising-frequency-of-interspecies-mating/

I suspect you're right fromorbit when you say
Reality is a bunch of Labour MPs secretly back Rosie. They won't surface until they have to and all they need is minimal cover to rebel. They will say we want a helpful compromise and gut the bill effectively

There's a massive rowing back happening nationally and in all the political parties. It's still underground as the bullies and gaslighters still hold much of the public stage. But the overreach has been so spectacular that it's impossible to ignore. Appalling court cases, women's sport, offensive mangling of language, cancelling women speaking up, constant death and rape threats along with what is happening to vulnerable children are just the tip of the overreach mountain.

Meanwhile, women go on having the babies, sex is still identified at or pre birth, women breastfeed, menstruate & go through the menopause while society finds ways to accommodate those who do these ultimately womanly things while rejecting womanhood. And this gaslit generation of younger people will have to confront all the sex based challenges as we all did, because you can't gaslight away reality.
Terrible harm is happening at the moment - especially to some children and there'll be some real reckonings in the future. But much of the self indulgent queer theory ramblings will ( I hope) remain just that - the province of the academics in their ivory towers because so much of it is ethically unacceptable..

my post was deleted. I don't know why.

Does this mean I get a strike now? Am I Strike now? Am I JKR now?

There's a massive rowing back happening nationally and in all the political parties. It's still underground as the bullies and gaslighters still hold much of the public stage. But the overreach has been so spectacular that it's impossible to ignore.

I do admire your optimism but in just the last couple of months we've had New Zealand introduce Self ID, Switzerland approving gender neutral passports, Germany announcing self ID plans, the Netherlands paying compensation to trans people for forcing them to have surgery to have their gender legally recognised and even China opening their first clinic for trans youth. There are trans pop stars now, trans actresses being nominated for emmys, trans politicians, trans influencers and a generation have emerged who respect them and respect their identities. As people transition younger and techniques become ever more effective (just wait till stem cells really get moving) trans people will pass unnoticed in the world and this endless debate will whither and die.

The world is changing and the vicious historic discrimination and villification of trans people is finally coming to an end. There may be bumps in the road for sure, but internationally things have never looked more positive. Things will never go back to where they were now, trans liberation has come too far and there will be no energy amongst upcoming generations to reverse that - climate change, economic insecurity and the re-emergence of the far right will be far more important priorities to these generations than what genitals someone in the toilet cubicle next to them might have.

Yes, women's rights do usually take a backseat during any level of crisis. Glad you realise that.

I see you've brought it back to toilets again. Hell take hospital wards, refuges, women's rights to have a female medical practitioner perform examinations, and keeping incarcerated women safe from male rapists, eh.

Yes, women's rights do usually take a backseat during any level of crisis. Glad you realise that.

Well let's hope that is changing. Global feminism has rarely looked stronger either and it will be vital that both trans and cis feminists continue to work together should the far right backlash against 'gender ideology' escalate its attack on women's and LGBT rights.

It's not the fait accompli you think it is.

Women are still here though and we are not going to shut up either... what was that saying....?

The public is starting to get wind of this. Parents don't want fully grown males who self declare as women in the changing room with their daughters. Nor do they want to be forced to declare that they believe in codswallop beliefs that defy all science.

But I do grant you, the Denton's strategy very nearly worked.

Cis isn't permitted on her either

here

The public is starting to get wind of this. Parents don't want fully grown males who self declare as women in the changing room with their daughters. Nor do they want to be forced to declare that they believe in codswallop beliefs that defy all science.

I'm sure we'll see less communal changing rooms and more individual cubicles as more spaces become gender neutral but that's all good. It won't hold back trans rights though. Trans inclusion is already the norm in the UK and almost all comparable countries. No-ones really that bothered, people barely ever even see a trans woman. Even if in England some reversal of trans inclusion is achieved that will make no more difference to global trans acceptance than Section 28 held back the global emergence of LGB rights. And no-one cares what England does anymore anyway. The world is changing - has changed in fact - and there's not much a bunch of angry middle aged people in the UK are going to be able to do about that.

And no-one cares what England does anymore anyway

Apart from the people who live in the UK. They care what happens in their country. You can see that with all the court cases pushing back and clarifying the law. Those damn pesky middle aged (and old and young people right.)

England?

Right. So not from the UK then. But investing a lot of time telling a crowd 'middle aged' mothers that they are doomed.

Me thinks the person of undeclared gender doth protest too much.

@TInkyWlnky

And no-one cares what England does anymore anyway

Apart from the people who live in the UK. They care what happens in their country. You can see that with all the court cases pushing back and clarifying the law. Those damn pesky middle aged (and old and young people right.)

Which court cases? Keira Bell? The AEA case against EHRC? The recent case on trans prisoners? For Women's case against equal representation in Scotland?

All that's been won is Harry got some guidance slightly changed on a matter that has little to do with trans rights, and Maya's opinions were deemed legally equivalent to homophobia. She hasn't won her case yet and I suspect it's quite likely she won't. So far all the court cases have achieved is to strengthen trans rights in law. With enemies like this who needs friends lol.

I very much care what happens in England, as I live here.

As for "trans feminists", if their "feminism" consists of undermining anything anyone does for women, and policing language in a navel-gazing manner, it ain't feminism. See image attached for example.

P.S. i wonder why children aren't allowed in the "gender-neutral toilets".

Charming

Maya's opinions were deemed legally equivalent to homophobia

For any lurkers who are wondering about this comment, the following information may give better insight -

'Religion or belief is a protected characteristic, in accordance with Section 10 of the Equality Act 2010, and Tribunals must apply five criteria (known as the Grainger criteria) when establishing whether a belief is capable of protection:

• the belief must be genuinely held
• it must be a belief, not an opinion or viewpoint based on the present state of information available
• it must be a belief as to a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour
• it must attain a certain level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance
• it must be worthy of respect in a democratic society, not be incompatible with human dignity and not conflict with the fundamental rights of others.'

Maya Forstater's appeal was upheld. GC views are a protected belief because they meet all the criteria.

I think it would amaze people to know that stating the established fact that the human species cannot change sex has had to be established as a protected belief so that women cannot be forced out of employment.

As people transition younger and techniques become ever more effective (just wait till stem cells really get moving) trans people will pass unnoticed in the world and this endless debate will whither and die.

What will stem cells do in future Badminton?

And in terms of the Forstater case, there is a full merit hearing in March of this year in which it will be established whether her employer discriminated against her for holding a belief. Given that that belief has now been established as a protected belief, it will be interesting to see how that goes. It seems to have been acknowledged during the case that Maya used preferred pronouns with colleagues and generally was respectful of transpeople. She just didn't hold the views that they could literally change sex. And she's right. They can't.

Yes, we're all so unimportant. Yet people come from all over the world to this little corner of the internet to display their anti women rhetoric, their ageism, their lack of care for children along with a quite remarkable lack of knowledge and flawed expertise in so many subjects. Yet still they arrive here just to berate women.

It's a mystery what brings them here - an absolute mystery

barleybadminton. Gosh you should really be careful what lies you tell online to try and further your failing cause. The actual facts are out there you know. 😉

It's a mystery what brings them here - an absolute mystery

I guess they want to know where they're going to fail next. 👍

A pp also mentioned the Harry Miller case. While reading it, this particular paragraph towards the end of the report struck me as particularly relevant, given the attitude of some posters on this thread -

'I hesitate to be overly critical of Mrs B, given she has not given evidence, but I consider it fair to say that her reaction to the Claimant’s tweets was, at times, at the outer margins of rationality. For example, her suggestion that the Claimant would have been anti-Semitic eighty years ago had no proper basis and represents an extreme mindset on her behalf. Equally, her statement that if the Claimant wins this case, transgender people will have to ‘kiss their rights goodbye’ was simply wrong. The Equality Act 2010 will remain in force. The evidence of Professor Stock shows that the Claimant is far from alone in a debate which is complex and multi-faceted. Mrs B profoundly disagrees with
his views, but such is the nature of free speech in a democracy. Professor Stock’s
evidence demonstrates how quickly some involved in the transgender debate are prepared to accuse others with whom they disagree of showing hatred, or as being transphobic when they are not, but simply hold a different view. Mrs B’s evidence would tend to confirm Professor Stock’s evidence.'

I am laughing at barely’s false confidence.

In many countries, women are waking up to the laws that have often been snuck in (Denton’s and even more recently the Transgender Law group’s publication). The realisation they have been manipulated leaves a lasting distrust.

And glad you mentioned the age of transitioners. When the detransitioners build enough momentum to feel safe enough to speak, when enough clinicians speak out against affirming only treatments (I mean, even prominent gender surgeons who are trans themselves are now saying there are issues that need to faced), when the various reports that start to finally focus on uncovering the reasons why teenaged girls are seeking transition at such high rates, it will certainly be a scandal. It will not be quietly swept away.

It is laughable though, how on one hand activists hate ‘England’ so much they have these derogatory names for UK feminists. Yet here we have barley, telling us we are meaningless.

Mind you this is the same poster who has also a habit of calling women with valid safeguarding concerns pearl clutchers (don’t you known BDSM and kink are the norm now). And makes wild and proven false claims about the transitioned male jail population within the UK.