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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

So 20xx: Self ID has passed. What next?

227 replies

MiladyBerserko · 07/01/2022 20:38

What happens after the legal definition of woman has changed so that any male can say they are one?

Will this be the end game and what on earth will Stonewall do then?

OP posts:
ThomasPenman · 08/01/2022 21:58

@barleybadminton

Personally I think either could be correct, but it's certainly not a lie to say assigned at birth, just a diferent way of saying things - and one that is inclusive to people with DSDs so handy all round.
The NHS say sex is 'established' or 'decided' for those with DSDs, not assigned.

Your care team may advise you to delay registering your child's birth for a few days until the tests are complete, you have discussed the results with your child's care team and the sex of your baby is established or decided.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

ArabellaScott · 08/01/2022 22:00

@barleybadminton

Personally I think either could be correct, but it's certainly not a lie to say assigned at birth, just a diferent way of saying things - and one that is inclusive to people with DSDs so handy all round.
Words have defined meanings. You can't unilaterally change the meaning of a word according to your personal opinion, that's not how language works.
EishetChayil · 08/01/2022 22:03

Eventually, women will start to disappear from public life. Afraid that they will be confronted by male-bodied people on previously sex-segregated spaces, they will simply stop leaving the house.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 08/01/2022 22:06

Trans activists: "the lack of historical records corroborating transwomen being allowed in women's spaces doesn't prove they weren't. Institutional transphobia meant their participation in public life went unrecorded"

Transactivists: "the lack of historical records corroborating women expressing discomfort, and reporting sexual assault proves it didn't happen. Institutional misogyny would never mean that women's objections went unrecorded"

barleybadminton · 08/01/2022 22:11

It has been acknowledged that "assigning" babies didn't work out well, and that the factual reality needed to be discovered.

But it is humans, and the limit of our knowledge who decide what that factual reality is. Prior to the discovery of chromosones, babies were assigned based on genitalia and if that was ambiguous they were assigned as hermaphrodites. Now we use a range of measures - intersex children are not assigned a legal sex based purely on karotype testing, but on what physicians believe is likely to be their future gender identity. There's an interesting article about it here: abcnews.go.com/Health/intersex-children-pose-ethical-dilemma-doctors-parents-genital/story?id=13153068

OkPedro · 08/01/2022 22:14

Irish living in Ireland 👋 Thankfully haven't experienced the self id laws (sharing toilets etc) however my daughter started secondary in September and I'm not loving her all inclusive school to be honest.. so much emphasis on what your gender is and hardly anything to do with academics.. I think school should be more than exams but unfortunately that's how our education system is.. already my DD knows 4 girls who are transgender.. and so many of them are pansexual.. makes me sad for this generation

Goatsaregreat · 08/01/2022 22:15

Sex is identified at birth not assigned - repeating a lie will never make it true (although the hard of thinking and self interested will always parrot it).

barleybadminton · 08/01/2022 22:18

@Goatsaregreat

Sex is identified at birth not assigned - repeating a lie will never make it true (although the hard of thinking and self interested will always parrot it).
On what grounds is sex identified (bearing in mind most babies are not karotype tested) and are those grounds always correct?
barleybadminton · 08/01/2022 22:22

Definition of assign: to fix or specify in correspondence or relationship : select, designate
assign counsel to the defendant
assign a value to the variable
Though assigned male at birth, she appears most comfortable and in her element wearing a skirt and high-heeled sandals when riding a big-wheel or playing with a tea set.

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assign

The dictionary appears to support it's use.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 08/01/2022 22:23

[quote barleybadminton]It has been acknowledged that "assigning" babies didn't work out well, and that the factual reality needed to be discovered.

But it is humans, and the limit of our knowledge who decide what that factual reality is. Prior to the discovery of chromosones, babies were assigned based on genitalia and if that was ambiguous they were assigned as hermaphrodites. Now we use a range of measures - intersex children are not assigned a legal sex based purely on karotype testing, but on what physicians believe is likely to be their future gender identity. There's an interesting article about it here: abcnews.go.com/Health/intersex-children-pose-ethical-dilemma-doctors-parents-genital/story?id=13153068[/quote]
It is an American story from 2011, about how operating on the ambiguous genitalia of newborns to make them more or less consistent with the genitalia of one sex doesn't work out well. As I already told you. The article consistently uses the term intersex, which is being phased out because of the misleading connotations it carries, and the nattering about gender identity is that, nattering.

If you find that provides you with fascinating insights, you are less informed about the topic than I was in 2005, and certainly not equipped to discuss this in 2021.

Goatsaregreat · 08/01/2022 22:23

OkPedro
Some schools are dealing with all this so badly. Not surprising as it's hard to stand up to all the disinformation and emotive crap that organisations have been allowed to peddle at children. Although it's being reined in now, so much damage has been done.

barleybadminton · 08/01/2022 22:28

The article consistently uses the term intersex, which is being phased out because of the misleading connotations it carries

No it's not, it's a term used by pretty much every Intersex advocacy organisation in the world. Don't mistake what you see on UK gender critical twitter for what's actually happening in the world.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 08/01/2022 22:30

@barleybadminton

Definition of assign: to fix or specify in correspondence or relationship : select, designate assign counsel to the defendant assign a value to the variable Though assigned male at birth, she appears most comfortable and in her element wearing a skirt and high-heeled sandals when riding a big-wheel or playing with a tea set.

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assign

The dictionary appears to support it's use.

Use simple logic.

If sex is "assigned", and I get all the midwives of the UK to assign all babies as male from now on, will the staff employed by the brands Always and Tampax find themselves being made redundant in the decades to come?

The answer is no, because sex is not assigned. It is determined at conception, and approximately 50% of babies born in the UK are going to grow up to have menstrual cycles and need sanitary pads and tampons to participate in life all month round. Their biological reality exists independently of people lying, no matter how many midwives I bribe to say they're male.

And this is why we don't "assign" babies with chromosomal disorders now- because then they got broadsided with what their biological reality actually was during puberty .

barleybadminton · 08/01/2022 22:33

If you find that provides you with fascinating insights, you are less informed about the topic than I was in 2005, and certainly not equipped to discuss this in 2021.

Below from 2017: www.hrw.org/report/2017/07/25/i-want-be-nature-made-me/medically-unnecessary-surgeries-intersex-children-us

Assigning a sex of rearing to a child never requires surgery. Genital or gonadal surgeries on intersex children too young to declare their gender identity carry the risk of surgically assigning the wrong sex. Depending on the condition, this risk can be between as high as 40 percent—meaning that many children will grow up to reject the sex that has been irreversibly surgically assigned to them. This means that for conditions where it is not possible to predict gender identity outcomes with confidence, doctors are conducting sex assignment surgeries based on guesswork.

barleybadminton · 08/01/2022 22:36

Use simple logic.

I'd rather use the dictionary, there is little logic in linguistics. As you said you can't just redefine words to mean what you want, and words are defined by dictionaries I'm afraid.

Goatsaregreat · 08/01/2022 22:41

Interesting how one poster can repeatedly divert threads when trying to impose their preferred language / views on women Confused

Were's that Bunbury thread gone?

barleybadminton · 08/01/2022 22:47

@Goatsaregreat

Interesting how one poster can repeatedly divert threads when trying to impose their preferred language / views on women Confused

Were's that Bunbury thread gone?

I'm not trying to impose anything. I merely disagreed with the statement that it is a lie to use the phrase assigned sex at birth.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 08/01/2022 22:49

@barleybadminton

The article consistently uses the term intersex, which is being phased out because of the misleading connotations it carries

No it's not, it's a term used by pretty much every Intersex advocacy organisation in the world. Don't mistake what you see on UK gender critical twitter for what's actually happening in the world.

Do these organisations actually do any advocacy for the medical needs of people with DSDs/CCSDs?

Or do they take the funding and run?

It is easily discerned that the term "intersex" is popularly misunderstood amongst lay people as describing one condition (when it is an umbrella term covering multiple conditions), and that people think it means children being born with both male and female genitalia. This misapprehension is hardly helpful. Thus it is being phased out because of the impact on people with DSDs. Someone with a DSD put intersex as a search term into instagram and counted up the ratio of porn results to information about DSDs. Insta is a form of social media used by teenagers and she pointed out the impact this would have on a teenager with a DSD, while coming to terms with their medical issues. To my fellow parents, the issues will be immediately obvious.

A parallel can be drawn with the disability advocacy charity Scope. As you may be aware, the charity used to be known as the National Spastics Society. They changed their name because the medical term "spastic" had gained so many offensive connotations from being used as an ableist insult. Service users and staff wished to distance themselves from that!

Anyway...

This is a statement from 2000 in response to GIRES and Press for Change trying to muscle in on a support group run by volunteers, to benefit people with a specific medical condition. It's... educational.

A Position Statement Concerning GIRES (Bernard Reed) by the Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome Support Group UK (AISSG UK):

Introduction

The Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome Support Group (AISSG) is a peer information/support organisation established in the UK in 1988 (formalised in 1993) and which achieved UK charitable status in early 1999. We are completely autonomous but are affiliated to the Genetic Interest Group (GIG) and Contact a Family.

We have around 120 subscriber members (and many more contacts) in the UK (mostly adults but many families too) affected by intersex conditions such as AIS, XY gonadal dysgenesis (Swyer's syndrome) and 5 alpha reductase deficiency; with some XX female members who have Mayer Rokitansky Kuster Hauser (MRKH syndrome, Mullerian dysgenesis/aplasia, vaginal atresia etc.

We have representatives in USA, Canada, Australia, Germany, S. Africa and Spain. Our website atwww.aissg.orghas received much praise, from people with AIS who come across it after years in the wilderness (having not been told about their condition) and from medical specialists in the intersex field.

Summary

After extensive email correspondence with Bernard Reed of GIRES during mid March to early April 2000, we decided not to work with GIRES at the present time. Overall, we wish to disassociate ourselves from GIRES and to state that they do not represent us.

We have already established mutually beneficial relationships with several groups of clinicians and are working with them on AIS-related research projects and the provision of multi-disciplinary patient care. We collaborate on joint projects with other related support organisations (e.g. the UK Turner Syndrome Society, the Anorchidism Support Group) via a consortium set up by the Genetic Interest Group. Within this consortium (set up in 1999) we have recently published a leaflet for clinicians to give to parents on receipt of a 'genetic diagnosis' and have obtained a grant from the Baring Foundation to enable one of the clinical psychologists with whom we work to carry out counselling skills training for the three groups' helpline volunteers. We also work very closely on an informal basis with the UK's Adrenal Hyperplasia Network (AHN) and Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH) Group.

We do not foresee that an association with GIRES would follow the same spirit as those above, so do not wish to join forces with Reed. We believe that Reed's desire to change the medical management of intersex, although reasonable in itself, is based firmly on the discourse of gender dysphoria (transsexualism/transgender, often referred to as 'trans') and moreover masks an underlying attempt to exploit physical/biological intersex so as to provide an authenticity to that scenario, an authentication that it doesn't need.

The historical perspective is as follows:

GIRES Approaches AISSG in 1999

Reed emailed us in July 1999 introducing a UK organisation called the Gender Identity Research and Education Society (GIRES) of which he is chairperson and wanting us to enter into a working relationship with his organisation. We read the hardcopy information that he sent and were put off by several things, but mainly by the fact that:

a) GIRES's heritage seemed to be as a trans, rather than an intersex organisation.

a) Reed seemed to be making a case for trans to be considered as a biological intersex condition. We felt we did not have enough scientific information to know whether this was valid.

While generally agreeing with GIRES's wish to change the medical management of intersex (including childhood 'corrective' surgery), we weren't sure about their claims that transsexualism was "an intersex disorder of the brain" and that the term 'transsexualism' should be abolished and it should be considered as an intersex condition. They also seemed keen on lobbying government to allow birth certificate changes for post-operative transsexuals (not an area of great concern to us, although some of our members would like to have a category of 'I' for 'sex' on official forms/documents in general). It all seemed rather political and we as a group are wary of taking political stances. We did not communicate with Reed further, other than to thank him for his information.

Approached Again March 2000

In March 2000, the person who runs our helpline received a phone call from Reed and, having forgotten about our reservations about GIRES, agreed that he could attend an AISSG group meeting a week or so later.

We emailed him to ask why he wanted to attend and it seemed from his response that he wanted a) to see what happens at our meetings, b) to do a presentation, with slides, on GIRES, and c) to discuss possible joint ventures. We explained that our agenda was already fixed (and full), that our support meetings were not the forum for all this anyway, and asked him not to attend (but suggested we might meet on another occasion). At that time he also urged us somewhat insistently to collaborate with him a) to influence what was to be covered in a TV documentary that the BBC wanted to make for the Horizon series, and b) to form a joint policy, along with the UK's Adrenal Hyperplasia Network (AHN), on what we would all present at a British Association of Paediatric Urology meeting in Sept 2000, to which all three organisations had been separately invited by the association (we accepted our 'invitation to speak' in October 1999). He was also excitedly recommending organisations like the Intersex Society of N. America (ISNA) to us, as if wanting to act as a catalyst between us, and possibly not realizing we'd already been in touch for some years.

The Dialogue Starts

We started asking questions about GIRES's policies and aims, about the nature of its membership and its credentials as a mouthpiece for intersex people. There followed a number of emails from Reed giving information about GIRES and asking for our comments on some GIRES guidelines for the medical management of intersex and on a draft synopsis of the issues that GIRES thought the BBC programme should cover.

Throughout his emails, and in his guidelines/synopsis, Reed would employ the phrase "gender identity and intersex conditions" as a means, it seemed to us, of slipping gender dysphoria into the picture without explicitly saying so. While many of the points in GIRES's management guidelines made sense at first sight in terms of intersex, we were wary of this "Trojan horse" approach to including trans within these recommendations because whatever aetiological considerations might link these, in terms of medical treatment there is a world of difference between purely gender issues and the issues faced by intersex children. We did not comment on the content of the guidelines/synopsis.

We noted several other things during the exchange:

a) Reed wrote that "We don't ask our members what conditions they have" and "I am confident that the majority of our members have no condition at all and nor does any member of their families. I estimate that only 7% of the charity's income is derived from those with a condition or the parents of such persons." It seemed strange for someone representing an organisation so underweight on the intersex side of things to be throwing so much weight around in that sphere.

b) names of well-known researchers and clinical experts seemed to appear 'overnight' against the various topics on further drafts of his 'BBC synopsis'. At least one of them (a consultant gynaecologist in the team at the UCL/Middlesex Hospital, London, who are our main collaborators on research/clinical aspects of AIS) had no idea she was itemised in this way and was quite annoyed; so we surmised that others possibly hadn't been consulted either.

The BBC Approaches Us

Meanwhile, Heike Rebholz at the BBC had already contacted us by email wanting to talk about how we might take part in the Horizon programme. Our understanding was that the idea for the programme came out of recent publicity about the "John/Joan" (or "Money vs Diamond") case, so it was to cover the issue of childhood genital surgeries.

An intermediary (an AISSG member with media experience) reported back that Heike was looking at the issue of 'corrective' surgery in Britain. And that she wanted to know whether the group had any members with 'partial' form of AIS (PAIS) who'd had surgery for a large clitoris/micropenis and now wished they hadn't, or someone who felt the surgery took too much away and left them with loss of sensation. And whether there was a spokesperson from the group who could say what the group's feeling was regarding surgery for so-called ambiguous genitalia - whether it should be left until puberty etc.

Our Response to BBC

We reported back to Heike, via our intermediary, that we didn't know how many of the 30 or so Partial AIS (PAIS) women/children on our list had undergone clitoral reduction surgery, but we knew of some adult PAIS women who definitely had not, and who are quite happy with that state of affairs. We had no contacts who had complained to us about this type of surgery. We had one recent overseas parent contact whose newborn was more or less given surgery without the parents having much say in the matter. The mother had subsequently discovered our group, read "negative things" about such surgery in our newsletter (ALIAS), and become very depressed and angry. We explained to Heike that the overwhelming majority of our contacts (several 100) had Complete AIS (CAIS) for whom clitoral size/surgery is a non-issue anyway.

We told Heike that on ethical, social, philosophical grounds we were against any surgery without fully-informed consent (which meant no cosmetic surgery of this nature on infants/children) and that society should overcome its fear of non-standard genitals rather than forcing infants/children to conform to some 'standard' that is patently contrary to that which Nature actuallyprovides, and that we also saw such surgery as yet another tactic (in tandem with secrecy regarding diagnostic information) in trying to cover up the very existence of intersex.

But we had to tell her that we didn't have the direct experience or voice from our members to qualify us to participate; and that we were more concerned with issues of truth disclosure, lack of emotional support, childhood gonadectomy without informed consent, osteoporosis, poor treatments for vaginal hypoplasia, lack of availabilty of carrier testing etc., issues that would presumably dilute the programme away from the topic of 'corrective' genital surgery.

We Decline GIRES's Call to Collaborate

We also sent the above information to Reed and added that we were uncomfortable with GIRES's blurring of biological intersex with gender dysphoria. We were unhappy about the possibility of a programme that set out to consider the specific question of childhood surgery being turned into one which addressed the wider issues of "gender identity" as represented, partly at least, by gender dysphoria (i.e. a group of people who were never likely to have had genital surgery forced on them in infancy/childhood). We felt that in the same way that we didn't have enough direct experience of the question of childhood surgery, we also didn't have knowledge of any scientific evidence that transgender/transsexualism was a physical/biological intersex condition. We felt that the potential inclusion of trans issues in the BBC documentary carried a risk of confusing the general public even more, the question of childhood surgery being complex enough on its own. We told Reed that we were unable to co-operate with him further on these issues.

The BBC not Swayed by GIRES

We expressed our concerns to the BBC about GIRES muscling in on the planning of the programme in a rather assertive manner. Heike replied, saying she was concerned about this too, and informing us that her agenda was still very much open and that she still wanted to talk with us.

AISSG Withdraws

However, by that time we were so exhausted by the whole thing that we backed off completely. The day-to-day operations of our group are run by only three people, all of whom have busy full-time occupations and who thus have to devote most of their spare time to support group work. In the end we just got fed up with being constantly pressurized by Reed, and found dealing with GIRES an unnecessary distraction when we had many other tasks to address at same time. We decided we were content with the progress our group was making, we were quite capable of speaking up for ourselves, and were building good relationships with clinicians and with other patient support groups, and thereby significantly influencing research and patient care in a more collaborative and less radical manner.

PFC Approaches Us

On 9 May 2000 we received an email from Andrea Brown of "....Press for Change in the United Kingdom which set up the organisation known as the Gender Identity Research and Education Society (GIRES) approximately two years ago..." asking for our opinion of Reed's activities; and this is what has prompted this statement. We'd like to thank those members of PFC who have showed concern over this matter and given us an opportunity to make our position clear.

Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome Support Group (AISSG) UK
www.aissg.org

A number of other patient support groups issued similar statements around this time.

barleybadminton · 08/01/2022 22:52

This is a statement from 2000 in response to GIRES and Press for Change trying to muscle in on a support group run by volunteers, to benefit people with a specific medical condition. It's... educational.

I thought we were trying to be up to date. No offence but I've got better things to do then read the details of some lengthy squabble from over two decades ago. I'm much more interested in what Intersex advocates are saying today.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 08/01/2022 22:52

@barleybadminton

If you find that provides you with fascinating insights, you are less informed about the topic than I was in 2005, and certainly not equipped to discuss this in 2021.

Below from 2017: www.hrw.org/report/2017/07/25/i-want-be-nature-made-me/medically-unnecessary-surgeries-intersex-children-us

Assigning a sex of rearing to a child never requires surgery. Genital or gonadal surgeries on intersex children too young to declare their gender identity carry the risk of surgically assigning the wrong sex. Depending on the condition, this risk can be between as high as 40 percent—meaning that many children will grow up to reject the sex that has been irreversibly surgically assigned to them. This means that for conditions where it is not possible to predict gender identity outcomes with confidence, doctors are conducting sex assignment surgeries based on guesswork.

Yes. We know. You are teaching your grandmother to suck eggs.

Further to one of your other posts, please google the words "lexicography", "descriptivism vs prescriptivism in dictionaries" and follow the results and debates it brings up.

Educate yourself, mon amie!

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 08/01/2022 22:58

@barleybadminton

This is a statement from 2000 in response to GIRES and Press for Change trying to muscle in on a support group run by volunteers, to benefit people with a specific medical condition. It's... educational.

I thought we were trying to be up to date. No offence but I've got better things to do then read the details of some lengthy squabble from over two decades ago. I'm much more interested in what Intersex advocates are saying today.

Sorted.

The persistent online othering of intersex people

There is now a narrative that is continually repeated on social media, that states intersex people are neither male or female or a third, fourth or even fifth sex. This is frequently repeated by people with no experience of intersex issues and these messages often include inaccurate information about our lives and bodies and frequently include discussions of our genitals, even referring to us as having “both sets of genitals”. When trying to correct these misrepresentations, I am frequently dismissed, blocked or called transphobic. It frequently feels that I have become nothing more than an interesting anecdote someone has learned about in a gender studies lecture – and they have not considered that people like me really exist & should be offered the same respect as everyone else. We should not have our lives weaponised and used as part of a thesis, especially by people who have no interest in listening to our voices and will immediately block us on social media, if we do not agree with their analysis of our bodies.

I agree that we have complex biological variations that do not sit neatly into binary boxes – and this can be incredibly distressing and isolating for newly diagnosed children and families. People talk about intersex people being as common as red hair, but in reality, it is only a tiny number of children and families who are facing these really complex issues. In the UK, only around 150 children are diagnosed with a difference in their sex development each year, which means there is unlikely to be another parent in your NCT group experiencing the same issues – and there is unlikely to be another child in your school or sometimes even in your town. Parents frequently feel terrified and alone – and the othering language that is persistently used to describe their children, is likely to only increase their feelings of isolation. If children with different sex development are to grow up without stigma, secrecy and shame, we need to ensure that their parents are well supported and treated with compassion and sensitivity. By supporting parents, we are giving them the best chance to be positive advocates for their children.

There are now numerous guides for schools that talk about the best practice for supporting transgender young people. These all talk about the trauma of being misgendered or the pain that can be caused by not respecting pronouns. We are told that not affirming someone’s gender is an act of violence and can lead to young people attempting suicide. The latest advice from Stonewall also talks about “listening to the child or young person and following their lead and preferences”. The Trans Inclusion Toolkit from Allsorts states “Follow the lead of the child, young person and if appropriate their family”.

It is hard to understand why people promoting these guides on how to best support trans young people, do not share the same empathy for children & young people with different sex development. One recent comment stated that those of us arguing that it is wrong to force a third sex narrative onto all intersex people, have a “fear of being othered away from our female safety nets”. This seemed to dismiss any of the trauma & real loss that many intersex women have experienced. Born and raised as girls and then finding out as young teens that they could not have children & could have difficulty having sex due to lack of vaginal depth – as well as finding out about your chromosomes and internal testes. You do feel ripped away from everything you thought was true about yourself. It takes time to process this and grieve for these very real losses, before being able to put yourself back together again in a way that you can feel positive about living with a different body. This can take time and patience and it is essential that anyone working with children and families facing these issues, is able to be compassionate and sensitive to their needs. The current trend to other intersex people as a third sex or neither male or female, offers newly diagnosed children & families, none of the same empathy and understanding that is considered vitally important when supporting young people with gender dysphoria. Information sent to schools, often includes the Genderbread Person or Gender Unicorn, which has intersex listed as a third sex, alongside ‘other’. The Allsorts Toolkit references intersex, although the information they provide is misleading and even inaccurately implies that many intersex people transition as they have been misdiagnosed in infancy.

I want people with differences in their sex development to have the freedom to define themselves in the way that is best for them – & to talk about their own experiences in the way that feels most authentic. For some, this may be defining themselves as having a medical condition and believing that they shouldn’t feel stigmatised by this, any more than they should feel stigmatised for having diabetes or asthma. They may want to work with health professionals to try and improve care for children and young people. For others, especially people who have experienced traumatic & non-consensual surgery, any dealing with health professionals is difficult. I can also understand that an intersex identity can be an important way for some people to reclaim ownership of their lives and body – and I fully support any intersex person to talk about themselves in this way. It is also amazing to see young intersex activists proudly talking about their bodies and experiences and trying to form connections and support networks with other young people. This is so inspiring for young people growing up with different bodies and can show them that they don’t have to feel ashamed or alone. Our bodies do not need to be fixed and are usually healthy and fine to be left alone.

What I don’t support is trying to force the third sex narrative onto all of us born with different bodies – and I am now seeing even women with PCOS and men with mild hypospadias having their biological sex questioned & debated. It is important to recognise that we may need different narratives and perspectives at different times of our lives and that we are allowed the space to work this out for ourselves. Most important for me is that we speak out against the constant debates about the nature of ‘what we are’ and instead concentrate on ‘what we need’.

What do we need?

Intersex people are a diverse group and this is represented in our needs. However, most us have a sex easily identified at birth and learn to live with our different body & are happy to stay in the sex in which we grew up. Although a few intersex people may choose to identify in different ways, this is not a priority for most – and although sensitive and inclusive language is vital, pronouns and third sex markers are rarely a priority issue. There are rare occasions when it is extremely difficult to determine the sex of an infant or when a difference in sex characteristics can be associated with an underlying life threatening medical condition. These children and their families should not have their complex histories used or weaponised, without any consideration to the significant trauma they will possibly have experienced.

From my own perspective, our main priorities are as follows:

Good psychological support for children & their families. This is vital if parents are to be supported to be the best advocates for their children. They need support to ask questions about any intervention that is recommended & to know that surgery isn’t necessary unless there is an urgent clinical need. It is vital that they know it is OK to wait and to be offered the psychological support to help them discuss what is happening with friends and family. Any medical or surgical intervention offered should have robust evidence and consider the long-term risks and complications. As with all types of surgery, this should be considered only when there is clinical need. Do no harm should be prioritised for any intervention.Age appropriate information, stories & narratives should be available to support young people to describe their experiences in the way that is best for them. These may need to be culturally sensitive and presented without judgement.Peer support for young people, so that they understand it is OK to grow up with a different body and that it is OK to ask questions. They also need to be given honest and accurate information about their body.Allowing children & families to talk about their experiences in their own words and feeling that there are supportive places where their voices can be heard.Good medical care to support the very real medical complications that people with differences in their sex development can commonly experience. This can include hormone levels, HRT, bone density, lack of vaginal depth, infertility and even hearing problems.Support for young people as they go through puberty & start to explore the possibility of sex and relationships. This may include the use of dilators to increase vaginal depth & can require significant emotional support.We need more tolerance of different views amongst intersex people, so that we can feel comfortable to discuss our lives, helping to reduce stigma by not alienating the people that are in the most need of support.

For more information about the needs of intersex people, see the 2019 report from dsdfamilieswww.dsdfamilies.org/application/files/8015/5447/3715/reportdsdf-2019.pdfas this involved consulting with children, young people and adults living with different sex development and their families.

What we don’t need

What we really don’t need is to be used, appropriated and even fetishised in debates about gender. This results in our own humanity being lost in endless discussions about ‘what we are’ or ‘how we are classified’, with very little concern about ‘how we are treated’. We should not be used as ‘gotchas’ in debates about gender identities and used to validate threats and abuse of women. We should not be forced to describe our experiences according to beliefs in gender identities, especially as not all of us experience this and feel we are as much a complex mix of masculine & feminine traits as any other human.

We should also not be used to validate the medicalisation of gender dysphoria in children. I believe that my body was surgically altered as a teenager, based on the ideological belief that my body must match my gender or gender identity, which correlates with the many stories I read today of children born in the wrong body and needing ever earlier intervention. My parents were even told that if I was given accurate information about my body, I would be suicidal – and therefore consented to all interventions suggested. I am not arrogant enough to claim that I have all the answers and it is likely that transition is in the best interests of some children and young people. From my understanding of what is currently happening in the UK, the Gender Identity Service (GIDS), still has many sensible voices that are calling for robust evidence and want to ensure careful assessment and psychological support. However, I am concerned about any groups that are trying to prevent open debate and are aiming to prioritise their ideological beliefs over the evidence. This has the potential for significant harm, very similar to the harm experienced by many intersex people.

Do these views, which I would not consider extreme, hateful, violent or intolerant – mean that I should be dismissed as transphobic & dehumanised as ‘trash’ or a TERF? Have people become so intolerant, that even asking to have our own voice can lead to this abuse? Has this debate become so toxic, that even discussing the very real ethical considerations involved with medical interventions in children, including sterilisation, can result in you being treated in this way? It has been especially distressing to see people who claim to speak and work with intersex people, endorsing this language – and treating some of us as if we are ‘the wrong sort of intersex people’.

Most importantly, we need to remember that there are children and families experiencing these very real and complex issues – and it is vital that their wellbeing and needs are not lost in this never ending and increasingly toxic debate.

differently-normal.com/2020/06/10/example-post-3/

barleybadminton · 08/01/2022 22:59

Do these organisations actually do any advocacy for the medical needs of people with DSDs/CCSDs?

Why not look for youself. This is one of the larger US organisations: interactadvocates.org/

Here's probably the most influential Intersex organisation in Europe: oiieurope.org/

Fallingirl · 08/01/2022 23:01

I think what’s next for women is yet more prostitution and porn, under the euphemisms of ‘empowerment’ and ‘agency’.

This will feed ever more into women’s relationships and sex lives, so heterosexual relationships become ever more unequal.

And the biggie: surrogacy.

Stonewall’s next crusade will be “reproductive rights” for men, be they gay, transwomen, or just single, whereby all men will be entitled to their own biological baby, and women will be propagandised into gestating and birthing these babies, and then hand them over. -and there will be an almost total clampdown on asking about the effects on the babies of this removal from their mother.

But as always, there will be women fighting back. It’s unlikely to happen on MN, they will delete the most knowledgable voices as “not in the spirit”, but no system is ever completely totalising, whether that be legal systems or more abstract systems such as gender.

If there is a silver lining to the present onslaught on the rights of women and safeguarding of children, it is the radicalisation, consciousness raising and rallying of women, in a way we haven’t seen since the suffragettes.

Goatsaregreat · 08/01/2022 23:04

If there is a silver lining to the present onslaught on the rights of women and safeguarding of children, it is the radicalisation, consciousness raising and rallying of women, in a way we haven’t seen since the suffragettes

Thank you Fallingirl for reminding us. Smile

barleybadminton · 08/01/2022 23:11

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I'm not really sure what that blogpost has to do with the matter at hand except to note they repeatedly use the word Intersex, although it does also highlight the difficulties in assigning sex based on karotype testing because by that measure the author of that piece would be assigned male.

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