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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

So 20xx: Self ID has passed. What next?

227 replies

MiladyBerserko · 07/01/2022 20:38

What happens after the legal definition of woman has changed so that any male can say they are one?

Will this be the end game and what on earth will Stonewall do then?

OP posts:
barleybadminton · 11/01/2022 20:54

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Fascinating that a soi-disant progressive like Barley wishes to bar people not of his/her/per faith from employment, and that his/her/per recommendations are so reminiscent of the values of 1701 when Catholics were excluded from public offices.

Personally, I'd be ashamed of having anything in common with such sectarianism.

Please don't mistake a description of the law with my personal beliefs. It is quite common for religious organisations to insist a potential emplyee practices a particular religion. The Salavation Army certainly used to do it, I don't know if they still do but probably. And the legal justification for that is both that is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim and that it is a genuine occupational requirement. I happen to think that's unacceptable, especially in the case of front line support staff in hostels and some of the other work the SA gets involved in but they have die it, and they justify it on those grounds. As I said it would be interesting to see it challenged in law.

In Maya's case however things are differently balanced. Her employer is an openly trans inclusive organisation and she was publically linked to them. Turn it around for a second. I believe LGB Alliance are currently recruiting for a Chief Executive - should they be legally compelled under the Equality Act to consider someone whose twitter feed is full of public pronouncements that trans women are women and trans women can be lesbians? These are protected beliefs as Maya's case helpfully established. Or is it legitimate for them to say no, someone with those beliefs and who publically pronounces them would not be suitable for this position? And if it's okay for them why not Maya's former think tank?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 11/01/2022 21:14

Your attempt to turn it around does not work.

We are talking of a non-profit in international development. Its main purpose is nothing to do with trans anything. It should aim to be trans inclusive in the same way it should aim to be inclusive of Christian staff, Sikh staff or any other religion held by staff. They probably aim to be inclusive of vegetarians and meat eaters, too.

You are trying to place a thinktank that focuses on international development in the same class as a religious organisation like the Catholic church. Given the Catholic church's explicit aim of promoting Roman Catholicism to the globe, it's reasonable that adherence to it plays a role in their hiring practices.

Now, if Maya had been posting on social media that she didn't subscribe to the concept of international development, you would have a point in the comparisons you're trying to draw!

Waitwhat23 · 11/01/2022 21:37

In terms of religious exemptions, this is what is stated regarding occupational exemptions -

• 'A religious organisation may wish to restrict applicants for the post of head of its organisation to those people that adhere to that faith. This is because to represent the views of that organisation accurately it is felt that the person in charge of that organisation must have an in-depth understanding of the religion’s doctrines. This type of discrimination could be lawful. However, other posts that do not require this kind of in-depth understanding, such as administrative posts, should be open to all people regardless of their religion or belief.'

Quoted from this document - www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/26/1

The Salvation Army (as this was the example given by a pp) state on their website that 'there are some posts within the Salvation Army where there is an occupational requirement for the post holder to have a commitment to the Christian faith and on some occasions be soldiers of The Salvation Army.

There are several jobs currently being advertised on the Salvation Army website for support workers in homelessness accommodation services which do not have an occupational requirement listed in the job description. Therefore it is likely that these exemptions are for jobs which are for CEO level or similar and is legally allowed under the occupational exemptions.

As to your second point, I agree with Purgatory's post.

Helleofabore · 11/01/2022 21:53

Given you feel quite comfortable dissecting the mental health of a stranger online I will not be giving you a list of names but they are not difficult to find if you keep on top of the subject.

Recognizing the vulnerability of this person is hardly ‘dissecting’ the mental health of a stranger online.

And obviously my statement that detransitioners are retransitioning was rhetorical, it was not a serious claimthat everybody has retransitoned by several have, including those who were involved in the GC movement, whilst the Detarnsition Advocacy Network appears t have disappeared completely.

No. You made two statements set up to denigrate feminists. Something you have done on several threads.

Now you are twisting it to be ‘oh, no one would have taken it seriously!’

Now how about you address the substansive points I made about the unliklihood of any future court victories featuring a detransitioner.

I already pointed out that your claim for ‘consent’ could be negated by a poor level of care being delivered. And frankly, I believe that there will be cases where ‘consent’ will be negated by the fact that doctors seem to not be addressing underlying mental health issues. At what point will mental health impact ‘consent’ of a under 16 year old, even an under 18 year old.

But I said this a page ago.

Oh and I'm still waiting for a link to that study you were talking about.

And I was waiting for the good faith linking of evidence to support your statements.

Statements which you have now twisted to being ‘oh, I didn’t mean it, no one would expect me to mean it’ and can’t produce anything to support it. At least you admit their were over egged.

barleybadminton · 11/01/2022 21:53

You are trying to place a thinktank that focuses on international development in the same class as a religious organisation like the Catholic church.

No I'm not I'm comparing them to LGB Alliance. CGD are pro-actively focussed on inclusion and work to promote trans rights. That's not all they do but it's clearly an important principle, the pursuit of trans rights and trans inclusion is mentioned frequently on their website. When someone linked to them as an employee whether contracted or not speaks out against those values it undermines everything they stand for, just as it would if the head of LGB Alliance decided to start incessently tweeting that trans women are women.

So would that be okay? Should LGB Alliance be forced to continue to employ such a person, after all their views are legally protected? And if not why is it okay for Maya, but not for people you disagree with?

Helleofabore · 11/01/2022 22:02

Given you feel quite comfortable dissecting the mental health of a stranger online I will not be giving you a list of names but they are not difficult to find if you keep on top of the subject.

I guess the same could be said about those studies then really barley.

I read this and I am guessing you have no studies, no statistics, nothing? Because you made the ridiculous statements about feminists abusing detransitioners and the implication of the degree of first ‘wave’ retransitioning to be ‘dramatic’. But you are now attempting to portray us pointing out this person’s vulnerable status as ‘hateful’.

I take it that this is yet another ‘rhetorical’ statement made for the ‘dramatic effect’.

Yet another attempt to denigrate posters on this board. Quite the habit you have.

barleybadminton · 11/01/2022 22:08

I already pointed out that your claim for ‘consent’ could be negated by a poor level of care being delivered. And frankly, I believe that there will be cases where ‘consent’ will be negated by the fact that doctors seem to not be addressing underlying mental health issues.

It could but even the first case in Bell accepted that the procedures of obtaining consent were adequate at GIDS, they just didn't agree under 16s could provide consent. The second case disagreed and found they could. So all this is covered, the Tavistock's methods of obtaining consent are adequate - it will be very difficult for a court to turn round and say oh no they weren't a couple of decades down the line. They were, the courts said so, end of really.

Helleofabore · 11/01/2022 22:13

Well barley, the future will play out regardless of what you and I say.

barleybadminton · 11/01/2022 22:19

There are several jobs currently being advertised on the Salvation Army website for support workers in homelessness accommodation services which do not have an occupational requirement listed in the job description. Therefore it is likely that these exemptions are for jobs which are for CEO level or similar and is legally allowed under the occupational exemptions.

First job I looked at on their website for a digital analyst, one requirement is:

"The ability and willingness to work within, be empathic with and promote the Christian ethos and values of The Salvation Army Mission"

webrecruitment.salvationarmy.org.uk/ce0024li_webrecruitment/wrd/run/ETREC107GF.open?VACANCY_ID%3d916336IPjq%1BUSESSION=4671267CFF65B6750F8122BF7A16F0AD&WVID=1734341jyu&LANG=USA

So whilst not necessarily a Christian they should be prepared to promote Christian values. I imagine an employee who started tweeting Hail Satan or down with the church wouldn't last long despite those beliefs very likely being protected.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 11/01/2022 22:26

@barleybadminton

You are trying to place a thinktank that focuses on international development in the same class as a religious organisation like the Catholic church.

No I'm not I'm comparing them to LGB Alliance. CGD are pro-actively focussed on inclusion and work to promote trans rights. That's not all they do but it's clearly an important principle, the pursuit of trans rights and trans inclusion is mentioned frequently on their website. When someone linked to them as an employee whether contracted or not speaks out against those values it undermines everything they stand for, just as it would if the head of LGB Alliance decided to start incessently tweeting that trans women are women.

So would that be okay? Should LGB Alliance be forced to continue to employ such a person, after all their views are legally protected? And if not why is it okay for Maya, but not for people you disagree with?

Oh, look at that shifting of the goalposts you just performed.

You are comparing the requirements for the head of an organisation, be it Stonewall UK, LGB Alliance or a church diocese, when we are discussing the requirements for employees who are absolutely not the head.

The personal views of Nancy Kelley, head of Stonewall UK, are relevant to Stonewall UK the organisation. The personal philosophical views of a Stonewall employee in administration, HR, legal or anything else, who is not the public face of Stonewall, are rather less relevant.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 11/01/2022 22:28

So whilst not necessarily a Christian they should be prepared to promote Christian values. I imagine an employee who started tweeting Hail Satan or down with the church wouldn't last long despite those beliefs very likely being protected.

So, totally different from what Maya did then.

barleybadminton · 11/01/2022 22:40

The personal views of Nancy Kelley, head of Stonewall UK, are relevant to Stonewall UK the organisation. The personal philosophical views of a Stonewall employee in administration, HR, legal or anything else, who is not the public face of Stonewall, are rather less relevant.

So if a Stonewall employee who was publically known to be linked to them started tweeting that homosexuality is unnatural or bring back Section 28 Stonewall should just have to tolerate that?

I very much doubt the courts would agree which is why I think Maya's tribunal succeeding is unlikely.

barleybadminton · 11/01/2022 22:45

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

So whilst not necessarily a Christian they should be prepared to promote Christian values. I imagine an employee who started tweeting Hail Satan or down with the church wouldn't last long despite those beliefs very likely being protected.

So, totally different from what Maya did then.

Comparable, Maya's views are the diametric opposite of the aims of her former employer.

I don't actually think it's that unreasonable that if you work for a campaigning or political organisation then you should be expected to support their views, or if you don't you should at least keep quiet about it on public forums. It's a bit different to working at Tesco, although if a Tesco employee was found tweeting about how much better value Sainsburys were then I doubt they'd keep their job long either.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 11/01/2022 22:51

@barleybadminton

The personal views of Nancy Kelley, head of Stonewall UK, are relevant to Stonewall UK the organisation. The personal philosophical views of a Stonewall employee in administration, HR, legal or anything else, who is not the public face of Stonewall, are rather less relevant.

So if a Stonewall employee who was publically known to be linked to them started tweeting that homosexuality is unnatural or bring back Section 28 Stonewall should just have to tolerate that?

I very much doubt the courts would agree which is why I think Maya's tribunal succeeding is unlikely.

Oh look, another false comparison!

It is not transphobic to not subscribe to gender identity philosophy, so these analogies do not work. I do hope you enjoyed yourself typing that post out.

barleybadminton · 11/01/2022 22:59

It is not transphobic to not subscribe to gender identity philosophy, so these analogies do not work. I do hope you enjoyed yourself typing that post out.

But the belief that homosexuality is unnatural is a legally protected belief so not really incomparable from a courts point of view. It seems to me you think people should be free to say what they want in public and keep their jobs as long as you agree with them. If you disagree with them you claim it's a false comparison. Luckily that's not how the legal system works.

Waitwhat23 · 11/01/2022 23:07

Following your example of the CEO of LGB Alliance, the equivalent would presumably the CEO of Stonewall. Going with the occupational exemptions, it seems likely that the CEO would be expected to hold specific views which align with that organisation. Lower level employees would presumably not be held to this.

But,

From this website - www.jmw.co.uk/services-for-you/employment-law/blog/what-does-decision-forstater-v-cgd-mean-employers

'What does this mean for employers?

This decision gives gender-critical beliefs the same legal protections as religious, environmental and ethical veganism philosophical beliefs. Therefore, anyone sharing these protected characteristic are protected from unlawful discrimination and harassment.

However the EAT stressed that the judgment did not mean individuals with gender-critical beliefs could “misgender trans persons with impunity” and everyone will continue to be beholden to the prohibitions on discrimination and harassment within the meaning of the Equality Act.

It is important for employers to be mindful of the kind of workplace culture they want to promote. They will need to strike a fair balance between allowing freedom of speech and tolerating opposing beliefs and ensuring employees have a safe environment that is free from discrimination and harassment. Failure to do so, could result in the employer being liable for a potential claim either way.

As this case demonstrates that employees are generally entitled to hold gender-critical beliefs, it is important for employers to focus on thewayin which employees may potentially manifest those views, so if an employee is deliberately upsetting or inciting other employees, regardless of whether that belief is protected, it does not necessarily mean that an employer should tolerate it, or do nothing.

It is therefore important for employers to review their policies and handbooks and provide training and relevant education programmes, in order to help protect both the employees and themselves.

Policies and handbooks should include wording that managers and supervisors will not treat any employee unfairly because of their beliefs and that other employees must be respectful of other people’s beliefs. Further a zero tolerance approach should be adopted when it comes to employee’s promoting their beliefs in the workplace in a way that upsets or offends colleagues which could amount to harassment, and in turn could lead to disciplinary action being taken.

Ultimately as a result of this ruling, employers need to emphasise within their workforce, the important of tolerance and mutual respect in order to promote an open, equal, diverse and inclusive environment for people to work in.'

Maya Forstater made comments on social media, on an account which was not associated with her employers. She was reported to her employers by colleagues who believed that she should not hold these beliefs. It was noted that within her employment, she respected preferred pronouns and was generally respectful of transpeople. She just didn't believe that TWAW. There was discussion within the EAT about plurality of opinions within society and that even if someone holds an opinion, they are still expected not to create a hostile work environment.

The thing is, this applies equally to both those who hold GC views and those who believe TWAW. So if an employee of LGB Alliance believed that TWAW, they would be entirely entitled to hold that view but would not be entitled to continuely refer to their workmates as bigots or 'TERFS' for holding GC views, or to try to hound them out of employment.

But this kind of situation is happening. Women are being hounded out of employment because they hold views (which are legal and 'worthy of respect') which other people object to them holding, no matter how these views are expressed.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 11/01/2022 23:15

@barleybadminton

It is not transphobic to not subscribe to gender identity philosophy, so these analogies do not work. I do hope you enjoyed yourself typing that post out.

But the belief that homosexuality is unnatural is a legally protected belief so not really incomparable from a courts point of view. It seems to me you think people should be free to say what they want in public and keep their jobs as long as you agree with them. If you disagree with them you claim it's a false comparison. Luckily that's not how the legal system works.

I happen to be able to tell the difference between having a philosophical viewpoint and being hateful in the way you express it. I am able to say that I do not subscribe to the belief that the communion wine literally becomes the blood of Christ. There is a difference between that and actual anti-Catholic bigotry, and your attempts to elide the boundary between the two are obvious. Yes, that is what you are doing when at every turn you produce analogies that do not parallel anything Maya said or did.
OldCrone · 11/01/2022 23:17

I don't actually think it's that unreasonable that if you work for a campaigning or political organisation then you should be expected to support their views, or if you don't you should at least keep quiet about it on public forums.

Does the organisation that Maya worked for exist solely to promote the rights of trans identified people over all others? Does that organisation state that employees must believe in the ability of humans to change sex?

As far as I am aware she treats those who identify as transgender with respect but she doesn't believe that people can change sex.

Waitwhat23 · 11/01/2022 23:20

And if Maya Forstater's former employers are trying to invoke an occupational exemption to disallow someone employment on the basis of holding GC views, then this is important.

If someone holds GC views but has never acted on them - never done social media posts, or attended meetings or rallies for example, then they are being discriminated against simply for holding those beliefs.

And remember, GC views aren't illegal. They are 'worthy of respect'. Differing (legal) views are allowed in society, however much some people might not like that.

Waitwhat23 · 11/01/2022 23:40

And thinking about this more, I have worked with many people over the course of my career who have held opinions that I fundamentally disagree with. Unless illegal or racist, and as long as they are not creating a hostile work environment, I can't imagine trying to hound them out of employment for holding those views. I might not personally like them very much or particularly want to be their friend but I (and most rational people) would realise that people are allowed to hold their own opinions, even if I don't like them.

Gender ideology

Waitwhat23 · 11/01/2022 23:42

Posted too soon. Gender ideology just doesn't allow for dissenting views.

WandaWomblesaurus73 · 12/01/2022 01:25

@NoWireHangersEver

I'm calling it now: Stonewall will start advocating for people with Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), eg. multiple personalities. There is already a huge group of young people on TikTok/Youtube who claim to have this and it's almost a total overlap with genderhavers. Obviously the 'activism' they do has nothing to do with mental health or recovery, it's more like trans activism lite - using fashion to signal which of your identities is taking hold, cute pronouns and emojis, etc. We might soon see a pivot into 'talk therapy is literally conversion therapy' for them

When the trans cause is deemed passe, 'D' will be added to LGBT, there will be calls for 'multiple' passports and ID, DID sufferers will be retconned into gay history somehow, and people will be 'helpfully' nudged into switching pronouns at certain intervals. The way these teens theorise about it now is that each 'alter' (personality, someone could have many hundreds) has its own gender identity and sexuality, so atm the whole thing is like trans activism to an extreme with an even flimsier base in reality.

I know of a fashion YouTuber/influencer who switched to 'any pronouns' and then almost immediately started down the DID route as well, and treated the whole thing like coming out as gay: baked a 'congratulations on your DID diagnosis' cake and everything. Welcome to the new zeitgeist

Eddie Izzard is already doing this. But I've seen the multiple gender happening with DD's classmates.
WandaWomblesaurus73 · 12/01/2022 01:26

@DdraigGoch

what on earth will Stonewall do then?

In order to keep funds flowing in, and more importantly keep CEOs in bonuses, they'll find some new "disadvantaged" group. Furries?

They are moving into other countries.
WandaWomblesaurus73 · 12/01/2022 01:31

@barleybadminton you can keep repeating over and over that nothing has changed and that it doesn't affect people's lives but every month another two men saying they are "women" are being accused of predatory and dangerous male fetishist behaviour in the newspapers.
Women have started to notice.
Every week more detransitioners share their stories.
Every day, people wake up.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 12/01/2022 08:11

If sex is just "assigned" at birth, why don't midwives in countries/ cultures where boys are more preferred, just assign all babies as male at birth? It would save a lot of trauma and heartbreak. Hmm, i may have just solved the problem of female infanticide in developing countries. I await my Nobel Prize.

I hereby assign you a Nobel Prize winner!

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