A quick question about toilets?

[QuickQuesti0n]

So much of the trans debate seems to come back to toilets and people using toilets and changing rooms of their birth gender, how would this work for people who have undergone full gender reassignment surgery? Would you want a ftm trans person to use female changing rooms with their surgically added penis and mtf trans people to use mens changing rooms while outwardly looking female? I am aware I am over simplifying matters but it’s so often what it comes back too.

What do you think?

This again?

How do you propose we stop men with penises entering women's spaces and keep men without penises out? No-one, absolutely no-one is interested in checking genitals at the door, but male physiology is pretty obvious, so no men should be going in women's spaces.

Welcome to Mumsnet, congrats on your first post.

How about you start by telling us - what do you think?

Toilets is what many activists WANT the debate to come back to.
By reducing the debate to ‘just toilets’, trans activists are looking for an easy win-many people aren’t unduly bothered, since there are cubicles, and you generally don’t see nudity.

The fact is that many spaces are segregated by sex for very good reasons and >80% of trans people do not alter their genitals so these very valid reasons remain. If the principle of sex segregated spaces is ceded for toilets, it is effectively ceded for all spaces - for refuges, for prisons, for sports.

This doesn’t even cover the psychological rather than physical principles at stake-are we as women really nothing more than the absence of a penis? Do we have no right to a space on common with other women?

Yes, you start!

What mrswooster just said

People with a penis should per in a urinal, not drip piss on the loo seat in a cubicle.

That's it.

Yes transwomen should be welcome to use urinals in the men's loos. Surely it's the height of transphobia to be hostile a transwoman in men's spaces.

^per = pee.

Don't really want any people purring in a toilet either.

no such thing as " birth gender" you mean sex, and sex based spaces, no such thing as gender based spaces, if there was NBs would be defalcating in the streets because theres no spaces for them.

I am not new I just name changed for this.

I’ve worked with many genuine trans people over the years all of whom have had top surgery not all have gone on to have bottom surgery mainly due to cost or feeling comfortable enough now the pass day to day. I’m just wondering what peoples thoughts are on these people should they now out themselves daily by changing where they pee and change? I totally understand the concerns with self ID but also see the ramifications the fight against it is having on genuine trans people.

You stated "but also see the ramifications the fight against it is having on genuine trans people" Have you considered or spared a thought about the ramifications on biological women????

The reality is that many older transwomen who have undergone full reassignment surgery have been quietly using women’s toilets for decades. They don’t think the world needs to know all about it, and they’re very rarely adding their voices to the chorus of calls for anyone to use the women’s toilets if they think they feel like a woman when they woke up today. They’re also rarely the same people who want to make natal women feel uncomfortable, who use mixed sex facilities where they are available, and generally just get on with living their lives as quietly and unobtrusively as possible.

A totally different kettle to the whole modern TRA movement.

So much of the trans debate seems to come back to toilets

No, it doesn't.

HTH

@Appledrop

You stated "but also see the ramifications the fight against it is having on genuine trans people" Have you considered or spared a thought about the ramifications on biological women????

As a biological female I understand the ramifications dangerous people (usually men) can have on us.

dangerous people (usually men) can have on us.

Let's not minimise the danger please, almost 99% of all sex offences are committed by males of all genders and just under 90% of all violent crimes . The danger from women is tiny compared to the danger from people born male.

@MrsWooster

Toilets is what many activists WANT the debate to come back to. By reducing the debate to ‘just toilets’, trans activists are looking for an easy win-many people aren’t unduly bothered, since there are cubicles, and you generally don’t see nudity.

The fact is that many spaces are segregated by sex for very good reasons and >80% of trans people do not alter their genitals so these very valid reasons remain. If the principle of sex segregated spaces is ceded for toilets, it is effectively ceded for all spaces - for refuges, for prisons, for sports.

This doesn’t even cover the psychological rather than physical principles at stake-are we as women really nothing more than the absence of a penis? Do we have no right to a space on common with other women?

absolutely this.

Let's turn that around OP, and I'm trying to be patient since there are umpteen million repetitions of this all over this board:

• what should female people do about the fact that there is no possibility of policing which male person no longer has a penis when they walk into a space where females are undressed and vulnerable? How exactly are you going to gatekeep that?

• what should female people do who cannot use or access mixed sex spaces? Regardless of the cosmetic changes a male person has made to their body. Where do they go so that male people may take their preferred choice from all the facilities? Do we just exclude them from society because... what? Female people being able to pee matter less than making male people happy?

Female resources are needed by female humans, they are not available to repurpose to meet special needs of male people. Any male people. Other solutions for those male people are needed that do not involve removing rights, facilities, access, equality and services from females. Third spaces would work.

Only some sort of creep would want men to have access to women's toilets.

And "men" means all adult human males.

I am a big fan of gender neutral spaces for transpeople and their allies.
Transwomen are not women, so they should not be in women only spaces. If they feel uncomfortable in male spaces, they should campaign for a third space, not take ours.
Transwomen who think having a third space is 'othering' should not be in women's spaces, as that is using women for validation without our consent.
Transwomen who genuinely pass (very few of them), and don't bother anyone, will be able to use women's facilities whatever the rules are, as nobody will challenge them.

You see, 15yeats ago, or 12,or 10 or maybe even only 5 years ago, it's not something many people would have minded or bothered about.

Yes, I think trans people have quietly and without comment been using their preferred loos for decades; I have never noticed any, or been disturbed by any.... Until recently.

A lot has changed. That's not what is being asked any more. So a big, big conversion has to happen now about what is best for everyone, making sure women and girls have everything they need before anything else.

The whole debate became aggressive and demanding and unfair. That was not the fault of women....

I don't think toilets is really the focus of most feminists really , but we get asked thus question a lot so it's clearly important to some

I don't believe that we are expected to use the toilet associated with our "birth gender". My parents never expected me to accept any gender

I believe it's sex

I used to not care , now I think there has to be third spaces as I don't see why we should discriminate between different expressions of transgender people

Sadly, we could all name those who claimed to have had 'full gender reassignment surgery' still look and act like the sex they are. Therefore 'full gender reassignment surgery' doesn't change sex in any meaningful way, or they are lying about having surgery.

Either way, they should respect single sex spaces and use the facilities of the sex they are, not the sex they want to be.

OP - what about communal showers? hospital wards and sports? What do you think?

And please, review your "quick question": it's birth sex NOT birth gender. Such a simple part of the argument that is too easily glossed over and gives away our rights from the off. I was born female sex and dress/act/think all sorts of ways that others would try to describe by gender stereotypes.

Interestingly I never really hear the transman viewpoint

I know transwomen want often ( but not all) to use the ladies

Transmen obviously could use the ladies but don't know if they want that , if they use the gents , if they avoid going

Whilst I agree it is less of a problem in that men are not in the main threatened by women , there is still a human dignity angle there