A quick question about toilets?

[QuickQuesti0n]

So much of the trans debate seems to come back to toilets and people using toilets and changing rooms of their birth gender, how would this work for people who have undergone full gender reassignment surgery? Would you want a ftm trans person to use female changing rooms with their surgically added penis and mtf trans people to use mens changing rooms while outwardly looking female? I am aware I am over simplifying matters but it’s so often what it comes back too.

@QuickQuesti0n

I can guarantee you it happened Fat Sams, Dundee, circa 2005.

Wow, 17 years ago a woman was attacked in a toilet because she looked like a man.

Therefore we should open up all women's spaces to all men.

"years of counselling, hormones and surgeries"

Who has that these days? That's very transphobic of you, implying that trans people have to change their bodies or go for counselling

@QuickQuesti0n

Obviously it’s all self ID but there’s a difference between being able to decide tomorrow to be female because you want access to womens toilets and it’s a new way for perverted men to access women and between people who have done years of counselling, hormones and surgeries, to get passports, etc changed!

How are you planning on policing that? How can anyone tell? Do you have the remotest idea of how far some people will go to get access to their potential victims?

Most TW do not have genital surgery, it is not a requirement for a GRC, plus the ideology these days demands that trans people need do absolutely nothing to alter themselves, be that the way they dress, hormones or surgery.

The bald fact is no matter what anyone does to their body, the way they dress, the medication they take they do not change sex. Spaces and facilities segregated on the basis of sex should be just that and remain that.

@TurquoiseBaubles no where did I say all men should be able to use womens spaces.

Ok so not all men. What's the difference? Who decides which ones, and how do we know which are those ones?

Who's going to stand on the door of every single women's space and check the credentials of the TW who wishes to come in?

And deal with the very angry ones who will say they don't care about anything but using the space they want regardless? You'll find posters here who have said this, and plenty on social media.

And 'policing'? What about expecting TW to have the capacity to respect and care about female people's access and inclusion instead of assuming that unless females can find a way to 'police' they are fighting an endless onslaught of male entrants who will never stop? Hardly suggests any grounds for trust here does it? Not to mention that seems to be a highly negative generalisation towards TW.

Female resources meet the needs of females. That's what they are for. They and the females in them are not a reward for a male person who's worked hard enough, achieved enough, knocked up the right paperwork, the hours of counselling - it's a space for female people to meet female needs. It is not available for male people to appropriate. That cannot be done without excluding female people. Get this through your head. It isn't a case of an entrance fee, this is not possible.

There has to be other, different solutions to meet these male needs. Removing female resources from females as an award for male achievement - the sexism in that is ridiculous.

I'm already annoyed at myself for responding to such a baity post but here goes....

IDGAF how any mobile-gamete producer thinks of themself, what therapy said person has had or harmful drugs said person takes, whether said person is post surgery or if said person has changed the name on the gas bill to one that's traditionally feminine. No men in women's spaces, EVER. It's not complicated. It's not difficult. At least, if you believe women are human in our own right and not merely support animals for other, more important people.

Question for the OP.

Do you think females require their own spaces, where females of any age and religion can go to the toilet, change sanitary products, wash out moon cups, clean up period accidents, change/adjust clothing, put on make up etc in a female only environment, safe from males and in accordance with some religions such as Islam and Orthodox Christianity?

Starting to feel a real sense of deja vu - this is identical to several OP's over the last days.

Is this the new tactic? Realising that public opinion does not favour men in female toilets, is the appeal/demand now for women to be reasonable to those 'deserving' transwomen?

No. No males in female single sex spaces.

Additionally, I find the whole 'transwomen have been using your toilets for years anyway' argument a very strange one. They've been using facilities in the full knowledge that they are not eligible to use them and knowing that it would make the women also using those facilities uncomfortable. (And those women do know, they were too scared or polite to say anything).

And this is meant to be an argument to persuade women that further eroding single sex spaces is a good thing?

I think the point about transwomen quietly using toilets for decades is a good one.

I have never noticed a transwoman in a bathroom. A few months ago, though, an enormous, tall man in a dress stood behind me in a women's toilet, in the quiet basement of a bar in a part of town I wasn't familiar with. There was of course no question of confronting him, it would have been 'transphobic' - I simply went home as I felt creeped out.

And that was then, and this is now, and this is not working for females.

We have - in this thread - females who have left spaces feeling unsafe. We have on this board women without rape crisis services (three through in that service for TW), sleeping rough because they can't access the women's shelters, women who have had to stop attending the women's swims. This does not work for females. Female spaces cannot be mixed sex without excluding females. This cant be the answer - obviously. Unless you believe in male supremacy and female humans are less valuable and do not deserve inclusion in society or equal resources to males?

Female spaces cannot be mixed sex without excluding females.

Exactly this. I only ever use the disabled loo at work now because my idiot workplace has fully embraced self-id.

@QuickQuesti0n

I can guarantee you it happened Fat Sams, Dundee, circa 2005.

I think you're being dishonest. First you say

I don’t believe there would be no issue if transmen started to use womens spaces and I say this as someone who saw a female friends assaulted in the toilets of a night club because some people thought she was a man. She was regularly refused access to womens spaces because she looked like she didn’t belong.

And then you say it was a single event seventeen years ago. Which is it?

I'm very butch, I get "misgendered" from time to time, and I have never ever experienced "being regularly refused access to womens spaces because I looked like I didn’t belong". It just doesn't happen. Women can tell I'm female, they might do a double take, I might concern them at first glance. But unless your female friend has a full beard and male pattern baldness, I very much doubt that anyone honestly thinks she's a man. They probably just don't like lesbians.

One probably homophobic incident aside, I don't believe your friend was "regularly refused access to women's spaces". The wording is suspect. It's regular. It's a refusal. (Not a challenge or an uncomfortable conversation!) It's "women's spaces", rather than specific places. "Because she looked like she didn't belong" too - not because people thought she was a man??? She didn't look local? She didn't wear the right trainers?? Fucks sake. Dundee is so homophobic that a lesbian regularly can't use the ladies toilets "because she looked like she didn't belong"?

I think you're lying.

The idea that women beat up butch women in women's toilets is utterly bizarre and pure fantasy. As is the idea that butch women are "refused" entry. Doesn't happen.

Women don't interfere with other women in these spaces full stop.

That's what WAS so nice about them.

@LimpLettice

And in all honesty, if you want to identify into the sex which is responsible for 96% of all sexual and violent crime against women, and want to look like one of that sex, than frankly you should stay out of the ladies and not make women feel scared.

I'm also extremely skeptical of all these so called 'masculine' women apparently being beaten up by women in female facilities. I can sort of understand being refused though, given how many men now seem to be obsessed with gaining access and making no effort to look anything other than blokey. It's not surprising some spaces are wary. With good bloody reason.

As I've just mentioned I'm very "masculine" looking. As I don't want to scare anyone I always try to remove my jacket before using the loo. I have a big chest and it's obviously not moobs. It's also easier to see my shape if I don't have a big coat or jacket on. I nip in, do what I need to and leave, I don't make eye contact and if I get challenged I am polite.

The last time it was "this is the ladies' toilet" to which I replied "I know, I'm a woman". Not snarky or clever or whatever, just a chance to explain quickly and for the other woman to hear my voice. (It's not high but normal female register.) She looked puzzled for a second, then got it, that was it.

It's a bit awkward sometimes, but I find friends etc are more upset by me being challenged than I ever will be. I think it's fair enough - I do look a bit like a short man - and although it pains me to admit it, I choose to dress this way and to keep my hair short. I could grow my hair out and wear a skirt, but I'd be very unhappy. So I'd rather just make an effort not to scare anyone for the five minutes it takes to use a public toilet.

I have had homophobic remarks and even shouting but nobody has ever assaulted me in a women's toilet - I have been assaulted by men but thankfully not in a women's toilet. Men see butch lesbians as a challenge, but that's another story entirely.

In order to allow 'some' males access to female only spaces you must remove the legal exemptions that allow for female only anything.

And you'd be discriminating against the rest of the men, who don't claim a special gender identity.

Why allow one man in a wig and not another without a wig? Why allow one in lipstick and a beard? Why not all of them? What would one man have that gives him a pass, that another man somehow doesn't have?

Inner genderfeels?

What's to stop MRAs from suing all these places that treat men with genderfeels differently from men without genderfeels?

@Linguini

Gender ideology myth number 21

Men who identify as women are beat up in men's loos, so we should let men use women's loos.

Circular argument:
Men who identify as women just want to pee, but can't in the men's because it's too dangerous, so we must let men in to the women's.
If anything happens in the women's loos that men are in, we can just call the police after it's happened!
Transwomen can't call possibly just the police if anything happens to them in the men's loos. Men are simply too dangerous.

Anyway, masculine women are always attacked in the women's loos, especially once twenty years ago. So this argument all makes perfect sense.

What about full grow males being permitted in gym's open changing rooms, when 4 year old girls are there for their swimming lessons?
My private club (Nuffield Health) has signs advising that males over 8 years old must use the male changing toom. But when I contacted them they could not confirm that there would be no males permitted and provided a plethora of piffle re. rights and The Equality Act

@FlyingOink

In order to allow 'some' males access to female only spaces you must remove the legal exemptions that allow for female only anything.

And you'd be discriminating against the rest of the men, who don't claim a special gender identity.

Why allow one man in a wig and not another without a wig? Why allow one in lipstick and a beard? Why not all of them? What would one man have that gives him a pass, that another man somehow doesn't have?

Inner genderfeels?

What's to stop MRAs from suing all these places that treat men with genderfeels differently from men without genderfeels?

this is exactly it and this is why governments and companies go along with it I think, the world is predominantly run by misogynistic males who think if a woman gets raped she must have been asking for it in some way, and all this trans crap will save a fortune because we can get rid of single sex facilities and have everything unisex.

77k male prisoners and they are bursting at the seams, well why build more when it will be so much easier to use the womens, theres only 3k female prisoners what a waste of resources.

the university will save money if it halves its number of toilets.
(women already have a third less toilet provision then men anyway).

the new sports centre will be so much cheaper to build if all the pools, changing rooms etc were unisex.

and so on, because men dont give a crap, never have and we fought for all the provision we have, its been what 30 years or less then that since the provision of changing rooms and toilets for women in the workplace was made law.

@FlyingOink I wouldn't want you to change a thing! The thing is, once you talk, move, have visible hands, all the other 'tells' then 99.99% of women know. You make the effort because you ARE us and you feel the fear too. Feminine is NOT female, and feminine men are not women. Especially not the vast majority who are feminine because Snapchat 🙄 Women don't go round randomly beating other women up in toilets. They just don't. Even horrible homophobic ones. The awful overt homophobic violence which was prevalent when I was young was, in news that will surprise absolutely no one, male violence.

It's all a lot of piffle. It's about creeping in the back and then saying well, we're in now, what can you do? Single sex works. If you require a separate space, campaign for one. Not my problem.

The one who doesn't consent is always, always the winner. The one who says no to sex, to another baby, to extramarital affairs, to a cup of tea, whatever - no wins. No woman who says THEY don't mind men in womens toilets, and therefore womens prisons, hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis, should never be allowed to trump those who do mind.

I am aware I am over simplifying matters but it’s so often what it comes back too.

No, it’s so often that people bring it back to toilets. Just as you have.

@maddy68

I honestly have no issue with anyone using any cubicle.

It's weird fixating on this everyone has their own cubicle. The only shared areas ore the hand washing. No idea how anyone can get worked up about that?

I also live in a country where a loo is a loo. And even if they are designated male/female. Everyone just uses the enory one.

It's NOT just about toilets. Letting men into womens toilets also lets the into changing rooms, women's prison cells, womens sport, domestic violence refuges, hospital wards.

@QuickQuesti0n

Obviously it’s all self ID but there’s a difference between being able to decide tomorrow to be female because you want access to womens toilets and it’s a new way for perverted men to access women and between people who have done years of counselling, hormones and surgeries, to get passports, etc changed!

No one needs years of counselling, hormones and surgery to get a change of passport. Just a letter from a willing doctor. It takes a few hours of admin, that's all.

How many years of self ID as the opposite sex do you think males should have before they use female spaces and how do you think that can be policed?

How many years of self ID as the opposite sex do you think males should have before they use female spaces and how do you think that can be policed?

She wants to be nice to men who she thinks have genuine dysphoria.

OP, most of them have a fetish too, and they even get off on "girly chats". Have a look at their forums and message boards and discord servers and subreddits. You're just a pawn.

Worse, OP, you're a pawn who is happy to give away what isn't yours to give away. I might be happy to let my neighbour have a front door key, but I wouldn't give them your front door key. And if you and I shared a house, your "no" would trump my "yes" and the neighbour wouldn't get a key.

You might have sympathy for these men, lots of sympathy, but you can't force anyone else to, in the same way you can't mug someone to give her pension money to an animal charity. It doesn't make you a good person.

@QuickQuesti0n

I am not new I just name changed for this.

I’ve worked with many genuine trans people over the years all of whom have had top surgery not all have gone on to have bottom surgery mainly due to cost or feeling comfortable enough now the pass day to day. I’m just wondering what peoples thoughts are on these people should they now out themselves daily by changing where they pee and change? I totally understand the concerns with self ID but also see the ramifications the fight against it is having on genuine trans people.

Almost all trans males keep their penis. I somehow don’t believe this is because they “feel comfortable in how they pass day to day “ We segregate spaces by SEX because one of the sexes commits almost all of the crime against the other. That doesn’t change with gender id.