A quick question about toilets?

[QuickQuesti0n]

So much of the trans debate seems to come back to toilets and people using toilets and changing rooms of their birth gender, how would this work for people who have undergone full gender reassignment surgery? Would you want a ftm trans person to use female changing rooms with their surgically added penis and mtf trans people to use mens changing rooms while outwardly looking female? I am aware I am over simplifying matters but it’s so often what it comes back too.

say this as someone who saw a female friends assaulted in the toilets of a night club because some people thought she was a man.

Really? In all my years of clubbing I have never seen this happen. Not once. I'm struggling to believe you tbh. Who carried out this assault? Other women??

Isn't that the case for male areas? Why are some males getting worked up about sharing handwashing space with other males?

Well yes. If people are going there to pee, then why don't transwomen just pee in the toilet allocated for their sex? They don't have a problem with it as they just want to pee and it's just a cubicle right? But as women do have a problem with sharing with born males, regardless of their gender identity, the easiest solution would be for transwomen to pee in the men's as it's just a cubicle to them. So everyone will be happy. And safeguarding restored.

And in all honesty, if you want to identify into the sex which is responsible for 96% of all sexual and violent crime against women, and want to look like one of that sex, than frankly you should stay out of the ladies and not make women feel scared.

I'm also extremely skeptical of all these so called 'masculine' women apparently being beaten up by women in female facilities. I can sort of understand being refused though, given how many men now seem to be obsessed with gaining access and making no effort to look anything other than blokey. It's not surprising some spaces are wary. With good bloody reason.

Three choices- single sex female, single sex male and mixed sex for those who don't care or have never felt afraid in an enclosed space with the opposite sex. Easy.
Why do tw have a problem with that?

So we are back to the wonderful "genuine trans" argument, coupled with the "women beat each other up in toilets all the time".

Who is keeping the bingo sheet?

Line!

Line 🤣🤣

In order to allow 'some' males access to female only spaces you must remove the legal exemptions that allow for female only anything. These exemptions are already being ignored thanks to Stonewall and other TRA's .Stop pretending this is just about few males wanting to pee.

The reasons these exemptions were put in place, for female safety, privacy and dignity, have not magically disappeared because some males want access. In fact these males who claim to need our safe spaces are making them unsafe for us, but they give no fucks about females do they.

You are also describing what we used to know as transexuals. 'Transwomen now include part time cross dressers, transvestites, AGP's, drag queens, males with beards who dress like men and most keep their penis.

Males demanding the removal of all female legal protections and child safeguarding which then gives ANY man free access to any spaces where women and children are at their most vulnerable which greatly increases the risk of physical and sexual assaults.

If they truely gave a shit about women and children they would campaign for 3rd mixed sex spaces. They say they are afraid to use male facilities yet are happy to grant access to female facilities to all men, which surely defeats the object no?

Sex segregated spaces are vital to FEMALES.
'Gender identity' is irrelevant to non believers. It changes nothing about a persons sex.

I can guarantee you it happened Fat Sams, Dundee, circa 2005.

Ok, I'll bite.

Transwomen who pass would not be outing themselves "daily" because they would use the women's toilets and there's not a damn thing anyone could do about it (because no-one's checking genitals and presumably they're too laydee-like to pee like a horse standing up with the door open unlike one charmer I came across in a gender-neutral facility.

So, we're not talking about transwomen who pass - they're just the stalking horse. We're talking about the vast majority of those under the trans umbrella who are not outed because they are clearly the sex that they have been since daddy's sperm met mummy's egg. They should use the toilets designated for their sex or a third space. Any harrassment of them in those spaces should absolutely not be tolerated and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

It's unfortunate that it comes down to appearance, but thems the breaks. It's not that "passing" transwomen get more rights, it's that they can break the rules and get away with it.

I don't care where transmen pee - it's up to men to say whether they want their spaces to remain single sex and they are obviously entitled to pee in the female bogs like any other female.

What I still don’t understand is how this would be policed would you stop allowing people who have had all their documents changed to their new gender to use the spaces of that gender, for what it’s worth I do see the problems with self ID.

I honestly have no issue with anyone using any cubicle.

It's weird fixating on this everyone has their own cubicle. The only shared areas ore the hand washing. No idea how anyone can get worked up about that?

So here's why I 'fixate' on the issue of male bodied people in women's loos:

Many years ago, I went to a football match (West Ham v Wimbledon, was pretty shit). About 15 mins into the second half, I needed to go to the loo so set off down the basically empty corridors and into the completely empty women's loos.

As I went in to the washbasin area, I heard someone behind me and saw out of the corner of my eye that the mirror was showing a man a couple of steps behind me. This was the 90s (so lots more women with short hair than now) and everyone was wearing basically the same clothes in the same colours (much less gender colour coding with adult clothes back then) to a football match. The person behind me was dressed pretty much the same as me except for a baseball cap, so couldn't get a clear look at the face. But it was immediately obvious that it was a man, because of the body shape and the way he was walking.

The fact that I could instantly tell it was a man that had followed me into an empty women's loo was what saved me from something very nasty happening. I got into the first cubicle and bolted the door, just in time to stop him opening it. He started shaking the door. When that didn't work he pulled himself up on the side of the cubicle to look at me over the gap at the top; I can still see his stupid grinning face wedged between the cubicle top and the ceiling. All the time he was trying to get me to let him in.

Very luckily for me, he was obviously thick as mince as well as drunk and/or high, because after a while (fuck knows how long - felt like a long time), his mobile went and he stopped trying to break in and rape me so he could have a chat with his mate. I took the opportunity to get out as fast as I could (successfully).

If that had been a mixed sex (what the terminologically confused like to call gender neutral) loo, I wouldn't have known that anything was necessarily wrong - I might have wondered, but I wouldn't have known, and I wouldn't have had any reason to speed up and get into the cubicle as fast as I could. I'm pretty sure that loos being single sex are what stopped me from being raped.

So yeah, too right I fucking 'fixate' on women having single sex loos.

@QuickQuesti0n

What I still don’t understand is how this would be policed would you stop allowing people who have had all their documents changed to their new gender to use the spaces of that gender, for what it’s worth I do see the problems with self ID.

I don't understand why it needs to be "policed". People bring this up all the time. Go in the correct sex toilet and there's no need for "policing".

Again, are you suggesting trans people are more likely to try and deceive people?

Let’s get down to basic biology.
M to F. Impossible.

F to M. Impossible.

How is it policed...? Just like today. You see a man in the ladies you point out his error and tell him to leave. No matter what clothes he is wearing.

You also asked what do we expect trans folk to do. They should be advocating for safe spaces. Not access to spaces that are already protecting others.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Gosh it’s amazing how many women seem to go around beating up masculine looking women in toilets isn’t it

Because famously womens default response to someone who looks male is to threaten them with physical violence….

Plus it totally proves the GC point that women are NOT comfortable with males in their toilets. If women will go so far as to beat up someone who ‘looks’ like a man, are they really going to be ok with someone who just identifies as a woman? It’s such a own goal point to make.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Gosh it’s amazing how many women seem to go around beating up masculine looking women in toilets isn’t it

Because famously womens default response to someone who looks male is to threaten them with physical violence….

If women really are beating up transmen in toilets, why are TRAs campaigning for transwomen to use women's toilets too? Seeing as TRAs believe transwomen to be magically more physically disadvantaged than transmen, why the hell would they even risk such a dangerous environment?

You'd be campaigning for 3rd spaces at the very least, if you really believed this.

And why the concern about the transmen anyway? Trans men are men! Which means they have physical and structural advantage. They can choose to either inflict greater pain on these violent figments of OP's imagination women or get the police on them pronto.

@QuickQuesti0n

What I still don’t understand is how this would be policed would you stop allowing people who have had all their documents changed to their new gender to use the spaces of that gender, for what it’s worth I do see the problems with self ID.

It's all self ID. No one goes to the doctor with a headache and is diagnose as the opposite sex. Every single person who has ID stating that they are the different sex has initiated it. The only diagnosis that is made is that they continue to self ID for a period of time. There is no test to prove that someone has become the opposite sex, because as we all know it's impossible to change sex.

@bishophaha

"the debate" comes back to toilets all the time because certain factions are determined to bring the debate back to toilets all the time. It has been done to death and honestly I now consider it a derailing tactic to divert attention from the myriad other issues.

I personally give about 1.8% of a shit about toilets for myself, although I understand why it's important for other people.

I think it comes back to toilets a lot because most people including trans people have to use them at some point. It’s something you can’t really avoid. So it has the potential to make people’s lives difficult. (One way or the other).

Most people do not go to the gym or prison or play professional sports, so there is less time thinking about those for the average person. (I’m not dismissing those as unimportant, they just don’t affect most people’s day to day life as much).

It's weird fixating on this everyone has their own cubicle. The only shared areas ore the hand washing. No idea how anyone can get worked up about that?

Those who have this opinion are obviously not the people who have used toilets in the way I have.

With the door jammed open because I have pram to fit in it. And a week's worth of shopping weighing it down while I sort out an emergency flooding issue.

Or

Taking my elderly mother in her wheel chair in because there are no accessible toilets and having to steady her and not have time to move a wheelchair out to shut the door.

That is just two reasons that I can and have got worked up about males in female toilets and 'mixed sex' toilets.

The lack of imagination is rather sad. The lazy mind of spoon fed youth, yet to feel the wrath of motherhood or caring in some other form?

Obviously it’s all self ID but there’s a difference between being able to decide tomorrow to be female because you want access to womens toilets and it’s a new way for perverted men to access women and between people who have done years of counselling, hormones and surgeries, to get passports, etc changed!

Gender ideology myth number 21

Men who identify as women are beat up in men's loos, so we should let men use women's loos.

Circular argument:
Men who identify as women just want to pee, but can't in the men's because it's too dangerous, so we must let men in to the women's.
If anything happens in the women's loos that men are in, we can just call the police after it's happened!
Transwomen can't call possibly just the police if anything happens to them in the men's loos. Men are simply too dangerous.

Anyway, masculine women are always attacked in the women's loos, especially once twenty years ago. So this argument all makes perfect sense.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Gosh it’s amazing how many women seem to go around beating up masculine looking women in toilets isn’t it

Because famously womens default response to someone who looks male is to threaten them with physical violence….

Makes a change from the Transwomen are being beaten up in the men's loos or will be. I have searched and searched and found not one single recorded case of this happening but have found several reports of women being attacked and assaulted in the female toilets by men who identify as women.

@QuickQuesti0n

Obviously it’s all self ID but there’s a difference between being able to decide tomorrow to be female because you want access to womens toilets and it’s a new way for perverted men to access women and between people who have done years of counselling, hormones and surgeries, to get passports, etc changed!

Whats the difference in a way that's relevant to a woman making an on the spot risk assessment in a toilet?

How do we tell the baddies from the goodies?