A quick question about toilets?

[QuickQuesti0n]

So much of the trans debate seems to come back to toilets and people using toilets and changing rooms of their birth gender, how would this work for people who have undergone full gender reassignment surgery? Would you want a ftm trans person to use female changing rooms with their surgically added penis and mtf trans people to use mens changing rooms while outwardly looking female? I am aware I am over simplifying matters but it’s so often what it comes back too.

Well said Oink but really I want to cry that this needs to be said

I’ve worked with many genuine trans people over the years

What do you mean by ‘genuine trans people’? Surely someone is trans if they say they are? That’s the whole point of the ideology- that people are what they say they are regardless of what other people think. So anyone who says they are trans is a ‘genuine trans person’.

I’ve worked with many genuine trans people

What makes a trans person genuine, OP? And genuine as what?

So, OP, your point is that you think that some men should be allowed into women's bathrooms, and you'd like to share that?

Hello op

Thanks for this thread. I think it's important to ask this question.

My thoughts are-

1. Have you asked yourself why your focus is on toilet facilities? What about prisons, communal single sex swimming club changing areas, with females aged often 5-85 ish age range?

1. Get impression you can't be too familiar with the general topic. You might be interested that it's common to raise toilets, and also to focus on rape as the only risk/issue in the picture.

Then to laugh at the silliness of getting worked up over such a non issue. Also to laugh at the idea signs stop rapists, and that men who want to rape women/girls will rape and nothing we can do about it. And often there's some stuff about women being obsessed with genitals, and more laughter about 'knicker police'. That gives a flavour plenty places to read loads of further often hilarious points.

1. Why ask about ' genuine' TW (transphobic to use genuine BTW implies some TW aren't).

When actual trans orgs etc want acceptance without exception, assume all people are in facilities they should be. Any even tiny reaction eg double take is extremely upsetting for trans people and makes them feel othered. For that reason it's helpful to be actively welcoming (seems odd in bogs but maybe just me). Saying anything is outright transphobia and possibly a crime. Oh and remember that internal gender ID and gender presentation are unrelated. To judge the appearance of women/girls who don't meet the feminine standards of appearance is anti women, transphobic, and it's right wing to judge whether anyone is a woman or not based on sexist misognynist racist colonialist religious far right beauty standards which are created imposed and judged harshly by vile (white) women.

Is this helping? There's a lot before you're more informed.

Also,

A penis is just skin and there's nothing inherently dangerous about them.

Male being majority commuting violence/ responsible for nearly all sexual violence is-

• Misandry /man hating/ believing female people are incapable of committing crime/ a transphobic dog whistle/ only mentioned as attempt to rationalise transphobic bigotry, any woman who mentions this and believes sex matters has zero interest in the harm to women/girls (and men/boys) who experience violence or sexual violence from a male /males.

-some stuff about wanting to keep femininity for females (?!), USA right wing Christians, same as segregation (USA again), embracing a sexist idea that female people are at risk from men, esp sexually motivated crimes from voyeurism to rape, leading onto keeping ourselves in a state of weak victimhood for no reason.

-oh and definitely prudish

-trans people would never behave badly in any way. Should be fighting together against actual problem which is cis men.

I mean there's loads to educate you about!

Have you thought about looking through some threads on here, Twitter etc? Or reading some of the many articles on net about all this?

Oh lord OP you're putting your foot in it all over the place!
I strongly advise getting the basics down before commenting anywhere else on SM!
You'd get clobbered for transphobia.

'I’ve worked with many genuine trans people over the years all of whom have had top surgery not all have gone on to have bottom surgery mainly due to cost or feeling comfortable enough now the pass day to day.'

Funny how top surgery whether double mastectomy or implants is so important.

Any thoughts on that OP? Esp why for NB female it's seen as a given to have breasts surgically removed. That's very strange.

Anyway.

You can't think of ANY reason anyone might not want genital surgery? You believe any (genuine) trans person would want and only not because of cost or will have but not just yet?

It hasn't occurred to you that the risks like loss of sexual function, unsatisfactory results, recurrent infection, possibility of multiple surgeries etc are so serious that obviously thinking nope is totally understandable?

That not having surgery on a vital part of body (loads of major blood vessels, nerves etc), baulking at the procedure, pain, recovery is understandable?
And when add the risks...

I am pretty concerned about the inadvertent messages you may be giving tbh.

Thinking that if 'genuine' this surgery is a given is not good at all. No one should feel they are genuine if have something as major as this surgery.

@Waitwhat23

Starting to feel a real sense of deja vu - this is identical to several OP's over the last days.

Is this the new tactic? Realising that public opinion does not favour men in female toilets, is the appeal/demand now for women to be reasonable to those 'deserving' transwomen?

No. No males in female single sex spaces.

Additionally, I find the whole 'transwomen have been using your toilets for years anyway' argument a very strange one. They've been using facilities in the full knowledge that they are not eligible to use them and knowing that it would make the women also using those facilities uncomfortable. (And those women do know, they were too scared or polite to say anything).

And this is meant to be an argument to persuade women that further eroding single sex spaces is a good thing?

They have, it's true. Age seventeen I encountered a middle aged transwoman in a state of high arousal in a toilet. (Glasgow Argyle St Pizza Hut 199x). As I was a teenager I had no idea what was going on and just left as quickly and quietly as I could.

@lovelyweathertoday

This again?

How do you propose we stop men with penises entering women's spaces and keep men without penises out? No-one, absolutely no-one is interested in checking genitals at the door, but male physiology is pretty obvious, so no men should be going in women's spaces.

You want toilet guards stationed at the entrance to women's toilets to have a look at everyone before they enter and ask questions if they don't look like a woman?

If that happens then shit's really going to hit the fan when a larger than average masucline-looking woman with short hair comes along and is suspected of being a man.

And aren't women's toilet queues long enough without any extra hold-ups?

Do you want the toilet guards to be armed too? (This is what Posie Parker suggested I understand.)

Literally no one has said that Marg but you know that

Great to see you back spouting nonsense Margarita. The point is that women's spaces are socially "policed" by glancing at people and checking they are women. The alarm can be raised if a man enters. People suggesting men without penises are welcome are missing the point that there's no easy way to tell if a man has a penis or not. Whereas a person being a man is obvious with a glance the vast majority of the time.

Good grief Marg Even for you that was a huge leap, total lack of reading comprehension.

And such and old, old, hackneyed stratagem too.

It's 2022! Could you not update yourself a little?

What I would like is for men to show some basic common decency - as the overwhelming majority do - and stay out of women's spaces.

Here's Margarita again.

Women don't know who men are, obviously, so need to ask everyone at the door.

I often wonder why people like Margarita are so keen on removing women's right to point out that some things are a safeguarding risk

The Wi Spa event was a textbook example of what happens when people are scared to say 'no' to a male who wants access to a woman's space.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/01/30/gender-critical-feminist-posie-parker-men-guns-womens-toilets-twitter/

Source.

I mean, in Wi Spa case, the 'guards' were the women wrapped in towels, begging the staff to remove the male from the women's section.

Note the response to these 'guards' - the staff apologised and said they couldn't do anything about the predatory male in the women's space, and one of the other spa attendees approached the 'guard' who was recording and told her she was 'being a dick'.

We are talking basically about social convention. It's now seen as not only socially unacceptable but perhaps illegal for women to question a male in a woman's space.

And aren't women's toilet queues long enough without any extra hold-ups?

It's pretty easy to see who is male and who is female. Unless you can't see. Can you see?

Despite the fact that single sex spaces are explicitly legally protected in the Equality Act. What actually will confront most women in day to day life is hte unspoken social convention. This used to be - 'if you find a male in a woman's space, speak up, speak out, tell someone, complain, make a noise' - effectively 'you have the right to name and define your boundaries'. Now, though, the social contract has become 'if you find a male in a woman's space, shut up and be quiet, consider the male's feelings, mind your own business, look away'.

So who is going to be the official person to check on people entering toilets?

Also to remind you of the current law transwoman are legally allowed to use women's toilets and have been able to for many years.

@MargaritaPie

www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/01/30/gender-critical-feminist-posie-parker-men-guns-womens-toilets-twitter/

Source.

I can't see her calling for men to be armed and stand on the doors. She did call for males to use those spaces in order to highlight the insanity. Is that what you mean?

Yes Flo, exactly. To paraphrase Exulansic again: good men stay out so that bad men stand out

@MargaritaPie

So who is going to be the official person to check on people entering toilets?

Also to remind you of the current law transwoman are legally allowed to use women's toilets and have been able to for many years.

Almost as though you ignored all the responses! Colour me shocked!

"She did call for males to use those spaces in order to highlight the insanity"

And to have them armed with guns? That does sound complete insanity, yes.