A quick question about toilets?

[QuickQuesti0n]

So much of the trans debate seems to come back to toilets and people using toilets and changing rooms of their birth gender, how would this work for people who have undergone full gender reassignment surgery? Would you want a ftm trans person to use female changing rooms with their surgically added penis and mtf trans people to use mens changing rooms while outwardly looking female? I am aware I am over simplifying matters but it’s so often what it comes back too.

I’ve worked with many genuine trans people over the years all of whom have had top surgery not all have gone on to have bottom surgery mainly due to cost or feeling comfortable enough now the pass day to day.

But you are in absolutely no doubt whatsoever of the sex of the very people you use as an example of who should be able to use women's toilets!

So these very people, who everyone knows are men, should be able to use the ladies toilets, because...?

If we're launching squirrels on this thread, here are examples of actual weapons being used in in women's toilets by men self identifying as women along with direct threats made against women:

twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1169574509827022848?lang=en

I remember going through this again and again when the clip came out.

I interpreted it as saying those who are willing to go to the extreme of carrying guns could take a much less extreme approach and prove the point that the laws erode safeguarding protections.

It always seems that Marg and some other posters keep bringing up the supposed ‘sins’ of feminists.

So, pie, shall we start posting all the incredibly horrific things that cannot be interpreted differently to what has been stated by prominent transitioned males.

What about we start with the two prominent transitioned males who mocked female toilet habits on twitter. And laughed at the sounds females male on the toilet.

And these are prominent transitioned males who insist that they are just there to pee.

And that women need to ‘just get over’ their presence.

How about we start there pie

@ComtesseDeSpair

The reality is that many older transwomen who have undergone full reassignment surgery have been quietly using women’s toilets for decades. They don’t think the world needs to know all about it, and they’re very rarely adding their voices to the chorus of calls for anyone to use the women’s toilets if they think they feel like a woman when they woke up today. They’re also rarely the same people who want to make natal women feel uncomfortable, who use mixed sex facilities where they are available, and generally just get on with living their lives as quietly and unobtrusively as possible.

A totally different kettle to the whole modern TRA movement.

Sensible answer. Thank you.

The reality is that many older transwomen who have undergone full reassignment surgery have been quietly using women’s toilets for decades. They don’t think the world needs to know all about it, and they’re very rarely adding their voices to the chorus of calls for anyone to use the women’s toilets

There's plenty of older transwomen who have been trans for a long time and do add their voice to the chorus of the born males wishing to use women's spaces. The ones that stand up and acknowledge this is wrong are few and far between.

The reality is that many older transwomen who have undergone full reassignment surgery have been quietly using women’s toilets for decades. They don’t think the world needs to know all about it, and they’re very rarely adding their voices to the chorus of calls for anyone to use the women’s toilets

It can't be that many. The government thought that only about 5000 gender recognition certificates would be issued. And they were right. That was their estimate of how many 'transsexuals' there were. And surgery is not a condition of a gender recognition certificate, either.

But apart from all that, what about the women who are uncomfortable with men in their spaces? For whatever reason.

Why is it all about what the men want?

It can't be that many. The government thought that only about 5000 gender recognition certificates would be issued. And they were right. That was their estimate of how many 'transsexuals' there were. And surgery is not a condition of a gender recognition certificate, either.

Good point. And bearing in mind those numbers self identifying have increased from 5000 to 500,000 plus in a relatively short period of time. Why is that I wonder...

@QuickQuesti0n

What I still don’t understand is how this would be policed would you stop allowing people who have had all their documents changed to their new gender to use the spaces of that gender, for what it’s worth I do see the problems with self ID.

Then you don't understand the social contract. Its not up to women to police women only spaces; its up to others to stay out of them. Women only spaces are provided for women to enable us to participate in public life. Making them mixed sex has the opposite effect.

@MargaritaPie

So who is going to be the official person to check on people entering toilets?

Also to remind you of the current law transwoman are legally allowed to use women's toilets and have been able to for many years.

Tell me you have a pink news source for that law.

No males at all in women’s spaces, if trans people want a separate third space they need to lobby for that, not take over adult human females spaces rights . Nb spaces include refuges, prisons, sports teams and places in the boardroom

For what seems like years, trans males have been coming on here saying that women either don't know they are in our spaces, or we welcome them with open arms.

Why people then get pissy at the idea of single sex spaces, I don't know. Surely nothing has changed - we either don't know they are there, or see there feminine identity and welcome them in?

If the vast majority of women are oblivious or welcoming, and you know toilet guards are not going to happen, why the panic posts?

Being as I am the sort of person who puts toilet paper on the seat before sitting down, I don't find any public toilet particularly welcoming.

@ZuttZeVootEeeVo

For what seems like years, trans males have been coming on here saying that women either don't know they are in our spaces, or we welcome them with open arms.

Why people then get pissy at the idea of single sex spaces, I don't know. Surely nothing has changed - we either don't know they are there, or see there feminine identity and welcome them in?

If the vast majority of women are oblivious or welcoming, and you know toilet guards are not going to happen, why the panic posts?

I have not been “oblivious or welcoming” i just haven’t particularly wanted to risk challenging a random six foot thirteen stone male. I imagine this is fairly typical. I also assumed that the people I came across were both gay and without a penis. I still didn’t want them in my space but I wasn’t worried that they might rape me . Now that the trans umbrella includes cross dressers and men who call themselves women on Thursdays and Saturdays, that is obviously not true any more, if it ever was.

This is really NSFW. And has lots and lots of trigger warnings. But this is one of the many reasons NO males should be in female toilets. rareddit.com/r/itsafetish/comments/an0558/depraved_agp_tamponpad_hunter_admits_to_stalking/

If you want to find your own source try AGP tampon fetishism.thete are threads of males delighting in finding used tampons in women's toilets and using them. I thoroughly recommend using an incognito tab for both clicking on the link or doing searches.

Perhaps one reason males have been entering women's spaces more frequently lately is because the penalties have not been harsh enough. Of course males don't belong in women's private spaces. But instead of making specious arguments that some men aren't men and that it is impossible to tell which are which, so unfortunately some bad ones have to be let in and pretending that gender-nonconforming women would be caught up in the dragnet if we tried to keep all men out, the cure is for all men to stay out. If they don't have the respect and honor to do that as a matter of course, then they should face criminal charges for trespassing.

We're constantly asked this question. My answer is that no male-born person should use women-only spaces.

It makes no difference whether they believe themselves to be female, or have had surgery to change the appearance of parts of their body.

That is absolute. As soon as you start saying some of them should be allowed in, if they're nice, or they're really unhappy, or they've had their penis removed -- then we've lost women-only spaces.

Also to remind you of the current law transwoman are legally allowed to use women's toilets and have been able to for many years.

Not altogether true, as I am sure you know, MargaritaPie. The Equalities Act allows single-sex exemptions from transpeople's rights to be treated as their chosen sex, "providing it is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim". Some councils and companies choose not to invoke that exemption. Not the same as a blanket right to use women's facilities.

The thing I find properly fascinating about this topic is not just the constant dismissal, piss taking, minimising, gleeful, ubiquitous reaction to women explaining why xyz is negative for women and girls. From discomfort to fear to harm to avoiding various activities locations etc.

I mean that's just bog standard bloody hysterical women, can't think straight, should do as told by their betters. I mean nothing new there.

It's the amount I've discovered, here and there, over the years, about how do many males are genuinely totally oblivious to so many aspects of our (women girls and from at least my experience our inbuilt, learnt, often subtle... Female community... Stuff.

Tbc

Examples that I have found out (some discussed with DH for second opinion!).

And as usual this is group level, not true for every individual ever.

And some of these I didn't even know were a thing, they're just, how it works.

• I was to discover that the subtle female-female communication when warranted goes entirely unnoticed.

Example. On tube at night not many passengers. Get on sit down mind elsewhere. Woman near catches eye and angles her head slightly to left momentarily. You glance. Bloke. Something off, maybe something small. Your radar makes a little ping. You look back to her and (with eyes only?!) communicate got it, thanks. You both are aware could be iffy, that you both are aware, that if anything goes weird there's two of you. No it's not all women all the time. However in certain situations it's just.. normal. Can I list how the situations vary? No. We just KNOW.

And these little things between women older girls when the old Spidey sense goes off. It's ALL women. Young/ old, veiled/punk, v skimpy clothes/suit and flats, snuggling another woman/reading a religious text etc etc.

And I've experienced this in loads of other countries.

All this subtle silent communication around possible male threat.

And going unnoticed by blokes. And really, of course it does. If they twigged then there might be consequences. If they knew they would know when clocked. It's about looking out for ourselves and each other.

And I did not even realise that this was going on, all over the place, and I hadn't even realised it was a 'thing'. It's that automatic.

Loads more examples.

So when claimed women never realise male trans person in bogs etc.
It's because they are oblivious, not paying attention, just not interested.

I can sense the immediate change in atmosphere when there's an unexpected male, or one that sets the radar off. No way to miss it.
Seems like even that doesn't register.

All the time it keeps coming back to-

We are DIFFERENT in a myriad of ways.
When we say how it is for us, we are the experts.
So we should be listened to.
Rather than told to shut up, stop imagining things, address trauma, stop being a man hating transphobe, and fuck off.

Note:
No doubt there is loads of this sort of thing between men.
Maybe to do with possible aggression or violence. Or to do with pecking order.. dunno.
Of course i don't. I wasn't born male and didn't grow up a boy/man.

I know the nuts and bolts of male toilet etiquette because I find it interesting (and a bit funny) but suspect I don't really get the nuances around urinal laws even so.

I get that.

Vice versa?
STFU.
plus of course. Sources? Studies? Proof? Oh piss off. You as a male refuse to listen to us. Studies won't change that.
And data about deeply socialised tiny things that we usually don't even realise we do?
Pah.

Spot on, Cheese. Males don't notice those tiny "be alert" signals because we don't want them to, because if they did, it could lead to harm. Reading body language and other non verbal communication skills are perhaps higher in prey than predator. All males are potential predators. How do we tell 🤔. I'd suggest a male being, or wanting to be, in a female sex space is about as red a bloody flag as you can get.

@CheeseMmmm

Examples that I have found out (some discussed with DH for second opinion!).

And as usual this is group level, not true for every individual ever.

And some of these I didn't even know were a thing, they're just, how it works.

• I was to discover that the subtle female-female communication when warranted goes entirely unnoticed.

Example. On tube at night not many passengers. Get on sit down mind elsewhere. Woman near catches eye and angles her head slightly to left momentarily. You glance. Bloke. Something off, maybe something small. Your radar makes a little ping. You look back to her and (with eyes only?!) communicate got it, thanks. You both are aware could be iffy, that you both are aware, that if anything goes weird there's two of you. No it's not all women all the time. However in certain situations it's just.. normal. Can I list how the situations vary? No. We just KNOW.

And these little things between women older girls when the old Spidey sense goes off. It's ALL women. Young/ old, veiled/punk, v skimpy clothes/suit and flats, snuggling another woman/reading a religious text etc etc.

And I've experienced this in loads of other countries.

All this subtle silent communication around possible male threat.

And going unnoticed by blokes. And really, of course it does. If they twigged then there might be consequences. If they knew they would know when clocked. It's about looking out for ourselves and each other.

And I did not even realise that this was going on, all over the place, and I hadn't even realised it was a 'thing'. It's that automatic.

Cheese this is so true, so well put and so interesting. And terrifying, that it's so necessary. I've breezily interrupted risky situations almost without realising based on those tiny signals, or moved away or redirected. This crap about undetected males in our spaces riles me so much. It's 100% obvious once again that these men are not women, have no notion of the myriad silent communications we've developed, the fear response which binds women because risk is so prevalent. It's a simple thing but men so rarely understand the multiple ways in which females learn to avoid situations where we have to say 'no' to men, because 'no' is often dangerous. Course we pretend not to 'clock' them - who wants to confront a great big fella aping our bodies and stereotypes in a secluded space with lockable doors?!

@CheeseMmmm

Loads more examples.

So when claimed women never realise male trans person in bogs etc.
It's because they are oblivious, not paying attention, just not interested.

I can sense the immediate change in atmosphere when there's an unexpected male, or one that sets the radar off. No way to miss it.
Seems like even that doesn't register.

This is again male socialisation in action, plus the heavy sexism that is so very normal in society that we don't even notice it.

It boils down to:

A male person has never experienced this, is wholly unaware of it, and therefore doesn't realise it exists.

When told about it - well unless it happens to a male person and affects a male person it isn't important anyway.

When a female person tries to explain how it feels, the difference, what they need and want - a male person feels entitled to be the arbiter on whether or not this is a problem in their opinion that justifies the female person in a) being listened to b) being given credence or patted on the head and told not to be silly c) told that male issues are more important so they have to get over it.

This is misogyny on crack.

And again we women are not there to validate your choice in clothes , your fetish or your belief that you are one of us. You are not