A quick question about toilets?

[QuickQuesti0n]

So much of the trans debate seems to come back to toilets and people using toilets and changing rooms of their birth gender, how would this work for people who have undergone full gender reassignment surgery? Would you want a ftm trans person to use female changing rooms with their surgically added penis and mtf trans people to use mens changing rooms while outwardly looking female? I am aware I am over simplifying matters but it’s so often what it comes back too.

Non trans women have no obligation to sort out trans people's lives or issues.

I agree with rabbit, just toilets is not what is being asked any more. And it's the way it is now being expected- aggressive pressure being brought to bear on anyone who resists the notion that TWAW. Protected spaces are there for a reason. A bunch of men deciding they want in does not change the reason those spaces are needed. In fact it strenghtens it IMO because it demonstrates that men can often be utterly incapable of respecting female boundaries. Changing rooms, hospital wards, prison cells. These all need protecting as women and girls are vulnerable when using them. Male aggression and sexual violence hasn't gone away just because TRAs have decided to use underhand tactics to get their own way. There must be another solution rather than males being allowed access to spaces reserved for women and girls.

So much of the trans debate seems to come back to toilets and people using toilets and changing rooms of their birth gender

Firstly, there is no birth gender it is sex, immutable and unchangeable, determined at conception, observed at birth. Stop trying to obfuscate by using the terms interchangeably, they are not interchangeable and you are being deliberately sneaky by doing so in the same sentence.

Secondly, the trans debate is dragged back to toilets by TRAs and their allies not gc feminists, the reason being that it is used as part of the salami slicing technique in removing women's rights - see, you say TW are women enough to use toilets so they are women enough to use changing rooms, female only hospital wards, refuges, shelters, prisons. No.

how would this work for people who have undergone full gender reassignment surgery?

It's gender reassignment surgery not sex reassignment surgery as sex cannot be changed whatever surgery is or isn't performed, therefore it does not give a pass into sex segregated spaces or services. How does it work for those who have it done? Use the sex segregated spaces that are supplied for them or lobby for a separate third mixed/neutral/call it whatever you like space.

While it sounds nice in theory, the problems with agreeing that 'passing' TW can crack on with using female facilities are multiple.

• it's exceptionally unfair to permit some male people to have this desired access but not others based on an accident of physical appearance

• who is going to decide who does and does not 'pass'? Many TW have stated a belief that they pass, which many female people would not agree with, would certainly notice and be concerned by in a female space, and again it is extremely hurtful to have to point out to someone that they are visibly male and need to therefore leave a space

• this adds to the issue, largely a mythical beast but lets raise it anyway, that female people must be careful and suspicious of any person in a female space who appears to be masculine in appearance which may lead to female people being challenged and female people unnecessarily alert and anxious to who is around them

• who exactly is going to ask a male person to leave a space on the grounds that they don't pass and are making a female person uncomfortable or unable to access the facility they need?

• some female people are unable to use mixed sex spaces . They need access to facilities too. They should not have to be concerned or unable to use a space based on whether or not a male person has sufficiently disguised the fact that they are male from them - this isn't some game, female people need female only spaces to meet sex based needs, not to be involved in a situation of 'have I successfully fooled you into doing something you don't consent to'.

It's practically unworkable.

This genie is long since out of the bottle. New and third mixed sex spaces need to be created, but male people, regardless of how they feel, what they want or how they have transitioned, need to respect that female people need the female only spaces, these must be inclusive of and accessible of all female people and these are not available to be repurposed to meet the needs of male people. Other solutions now needed. ICU units aren't available to pick up the slack of needed food bank work, and the fire service aren't available to do heart surgery. It's all needed, necessary work, but the core brief is essential as it is.

I have used single sex toilets to escape men harassing me in public. If they go mixed sex, that's another space lost to me. Why should my discomfort matter less than a transwoman's?

@codexa

Non trans women have no obligation to sort out trans people's lives or issues.

Some words your sentence are not necessary.

‘Women have no obligation to sort out mens lives or issues.’

@TheABC

I have used single sex toilets to escape men harassing me in public. If they go mixed sex, that's another space lost to me. Why should my discomfort matter less than a transwoman's?

It shouldn't and for me it doesn't in fact for me yours and other women's discomfort is the only thing that matters when discussing female only sex segregated spaces and services but TRAs and their allies couldn't give a fuck and insist that the only discomfort that matters and is prioritised is theirs and then they claim to be feminists and not in the least misogynistic.

There is a risk to men using women's single sex spaces.

Women don't pose this same threat to men.

If a transman wants to use male space it's down to them to risk assess that.

There is no issue if transmen, who are female, want to share space with other females.

There is an issue if transwomen, who are male, want to share sex segregated space with females.

It seems to me that transmen are only dragged into the debate when they are useful to further the goals of transwomen sharing womens space, be it toilets, prison, sport, single sex schools, changing rooms.

Otherwise, they seem to be largely ignored.

It seems to me that transmen are only dragged into the debate when they are useful to further the goals of transwomen sharing womens space, be it toilets, prison, sport, single sex schools, changing rooms.

Interestingly in the Judicial Review against the MoJ the MoJ confirmed that they would not incarcerate transmen in the male prison estate even if they requested to be as it would be catastrophically unsafe to do so, also interesting that the MoJ had no records of any transmen prisoners.

Also fascinating that there are no transmen in men's sports, breaking records taking places away from other men.

It's an absolute mystery why that is.

Passing is extremely rare. I'm sure many thought they passed for a long time when women felt it was just a couple of extremely distressed gay men. They didn't, we let it go. We are not letting it go now.

Women who identify as men are not a risk to men in mens facilities. Nor are their tubes of thigh flesh a threat to women in the womens. I still think men should be allowed the dignity of single sex spaces, but I don't much care if those women use the mens or ladies.

How would you like us to check if some men have had their genitals removed or altered? Especially conserving how few do?

Why does it matter? If women want space without male incursion, why is the presence of a penis important? It's not just the risk of rape, you know.

While miscarrying, or having the keep the door open with a double buggy, or whatever, why can I not expect a space without males, bepenised or not? If my Muslim friend wishes to adjust her head covering without a man present, is she less deserving of what she considers a safe space than a man with non penis?

Do you think women are just men without a penis?

Wtf is birth gender? We are born and die as a sex which OBSERVED. Gender is a set of stereotypes we may or may not adhere to, and sex is observed. Bodies commit crimes, impregnate, are more or less vulnerable. Not gender identities. So we classify on sex, not feelings.

If you've just name changed, why don't you know the 'they just want to pee' argument is utter bilge?

I honestly have no issue with anyone using any cubicle.

It's weird fixating on this everyone has their own cubicle. The only shared areas ore the hand washing. No idea how anyone can get worked up about that?

I also live in a country where a loo is a loo. And even if they are designated male/female. Everyone just uses the enory one.

And that's why some people insist on pretending that this is all about access to the loo.

But we all know it really isn't. We're women, not stupid!

@maddy68

I honestly have no issue with anyone using any cubicle.

It's weird fixating on this everyone has their own cubicle. The only shared areas ore the hand washing. No idea how anyone can get worked up about that?

I also live in a country where a loo is a loo. And even if they are designated male/female. Everyone just uses the enory one.

As shown on this thread, some women do have an issue with men using the next cubicle to them in a single sex space.

We have single sex spaces for a reason, even if you don't see the need.

It's weird fixating on this everyone has their own cubicle. The only shared areas ore the hand washing. No idea how anyone can get worked up about that?

Easy to minimise without considering the risks to women and girls in separate rooms (and not directly off of public corridors) where there are gaps top and bottom of the cubicle partitions. You might not get worked up about that. But, others do care about privacy and safeguarding. As we know, some men will go to any length to access women's bodies. Why on earth would we make that easier for them?

The solution is third spaces for anyone who feels uncomfortable using the facilities designated for their sex.

It's weird fixating on this everyone has their own cubicle. The only shared areas ore the hand washing. No idea how anyone can get worked up about that?

Isn't that the case for male areas? Why are some males getting worked up about sharing handwashing space with other males?

And as Maddy demonstrates, some females will be fine using a mixed sex third space.

However females who are not should not lose access to any space so that male people may choose from all the spaces. For obvious reasons.

"the debate" comes back to toilets all the time because certain factions are determined to bring the debate back to toilets all the time.
It has been done to death and honestly I now consider it a derailing tactic to divert attention from the myriad other issues.

I personally give about 1.8% of a shit about toilets for myself, although I understand why it's important for other people.

@bordermidgebite

Interestingly I never really hear the transman viewpoint

I know transwomen want often ( but not all) to use the ladies

Transmen obviously could use the ladies but don't know if they want that , if they use the gents , if they avoid going

Whilst I agree it is less of a problem in that men are not in the main threatened by women , there is still a human dignity angle there

The trans men I know use male facilities but they are not seen as a threat because they were born female and therefore less of a threat.

@QuickQuesti0n

I am not new I just name changed for this.

I’ve worked with many genuine trans people over the years all of whom have had top surgery not all have gone on to have bottom surgery mainly due to cost or feeling comfortable enough now the pass day to day. I’m just wondering what peoples thoughts are on these people should they now out themselves daily by changing where they pee and change? I totally understand the concerns with self ID but also see the ramifications the fight against it is having on genuine trans people.

Why is it 'outing' oneself to say you are a man with a female body? Do they not accept that themselves? Do you think they are trying to deceive people about the kind of body they have?

It sounds like the views of people who think certain genders should have certain bodies, which I thought was transphobic.

Third spaces. That is all.

@TInkyWlnky

There is a risk to men using women's single sex spaces.

Women don't pose this same threat to men.

If a transman wants to use male space it's down to them to risk assess that.

There is no issue if transmen, who are female, want to share space with other females.

There is an issue if transwomen, who are male, want to share sex segregated space with females.

It seems to me that transmen are only dragged into the debate when they are useful to further the goals of transwomen sharing womens space, be it toilets, prison, sport, single sex schools, changing rooms.

Otherwise, they seem to be largely ignored.

I don’t believe there would be no issue if transmen started to use womens spaces and I say this as someone who saw a female friends assaulted in the toilets of a night club because some people thought she was a man. She was regularly refused access to womens spaces because she looked like she didn’t belong.

“The trans men I know use male facilities but they are not seen as a threat because they were born female and therefore less of a threat.”

Well, no, of course trans men are unlikely to be seen as a threat in men’s toilets. Transmen might be at risk in these areas though if they are more visibly female.

Again, the answer would be more mixed sex and single cubicle toilets, in addition to single sex ones.

Gosh it’s amazing how many women seem to go around beating up masculine looking women in toilets isn’t it

Because famously womens default response to someone who looks male is to threaten them with physical violence….