Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

999 replies

daisiesonmydress · 03/01/2022 12:05

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Goatsaregreat · 07/01/2022 21:47

This desperation to harvest young women's organs for the superficial benefit of a privileged group is reminiscent of the worst times in history when groups of people were seen by their oppressors simply as subjects for scientific experimentation and not fellow human beings.
It's repulsive.

bordermidgebite · 07/01/2022 21:47

You have reflected that you are out of your depth ?

RVN123 · 07/01/2022 21:47

Empress.
YOU were the one who questioned how something could be unethical if the patient had given consent.
I am saying their consent is not the primary concern, because anyone could consent to any manner of 'scientific' trials engineered by God knows who, for any number of reasons.
Consent is not the main priority.

You really are obtuse. Is it deliberate?

FlyingOink · 07/01/2022 21:49

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I first asked to go on the donor register aged 6. I have a donor card in my wallet right now.

If this becomes a serious possibility, I will be putting it in my notes and telling my entire family that I do not consent to donating my uterus in the wake of my death.

Presumably the same would apply to men who didn't want their penis removed after death too

Surely if the circulatory and nervous system is as plug and play as Empress insists it would be an easier operation too?

Transwomen could have sigmoid colon neovaginas and donate their penises. Except I can't see many going for that

EmpressCixi · 07/01/2022 21:49

@FlyingOink

Of course I’m not talking about transmen who don’t want a full hysterectomy and neo-penis. I’m talking about those that do may want to donate instead of bin.

Sounds transphobic to me. Donating medical waste? And I'm assuming the transman's uterus hadn't atrophied due to testosterone use?

Are you talking about an untransitioned transman?

Sounds like misogyny to me, how dare you call a uterus “medical waste” that’s even worse than the “grow a baby in a bag” comments upthread. The uterus is the giver of life, not a bag and not medical waste.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 07/01/2022 21:50

Obviously. Surprised you didn’t pick up on it and I had to spell it out for you. On the question of benefit....disagree given the donor pools being considered:

If the donor is a transman who wants a neo-penis, it is to his benefit

Nope, nope, nope. If a transman is having a serious operation, they deserve a surgical team to that is centring their medical needs. That means their recovery time, style of incision, optimising the success rate on their body.

If the surgeons are also trying to take things out in a way that means the tissues will be suitable for transplant afterwards, the transman's care is being compromised.

FlyingOink · 07/01/2022 21:51

Sounds like misogyny to me, how dare you call a uterus “medical waste” that’s even worse than the “grow a baby in a bag” comments upthread. The uterus is the giver of life, not a bag and not medical waste.

You just said it was going in the bin

Sophoclesthefox · 07/01/2022 21:51

But to do a UTx from to a trans woman you’d need to also take the vaginal cuff(upper part) so you could attach the uterus/cervix/vaginal cuff to the trans woman’s neo-vagina. Otherwise there is no way in for IVF

No.

The phrase “vaginal cuff” refers to the sewn shut portion of the vagina.

If it’s not sewn shut to form the cuff, it’s just the upper portion of the vagina. It is not physically possible to have a cervix and a vaginal cuff. The latter replaces the former during hysterectomy.

Also, the surgery you’re so confidently describing doesn’t happen.

Nope. No. Non.

Hey, remember when you first came into the thread and pretended you were neutral and objective? 🤣

EmpressCixi · 07/01/2022 21:51

@RVN123
I am saying their consent is not the primary concern..

Back tracking I see. So from originally saying “nothing to do with” we are now at “not the primary concern’

foxgoosefinch · 07/01/2022 21:52

Maybe some people with Body Integrity Disorder might like to consider donating their uteruses.

Hang on - how is that different to gender identity disorder again…?

Perhaps at the same time, we could do some studies where the people with BID who want to be amputatees, could get together and donate their legs to people who have lost their legs! The Body Identity Disorder people could have their legs chopped off, get wheeled out of theatre, and then the surgeons could wheel in the accidental amputees and quickly attach the legs that were just cut off. Everyone’s happy all round, yes, especially if they’re paying?

Sounds totally ethical and normal! (Oh wait, sorry, it was on another thread that I was just discussing Ishiguro’s Never Let Me Go…)

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 07/01/2022 21:53

@bordermidgebite

You have reflected that you are out of your depth ?
I stand corrected border has explained it much better…
FlyingOink · 07/01/2022 21:54

Perhaps at the same time, we could do some studies where the people with BID who want to be amputatees, could get together and donate their legs to people who have lost their legs! The Body Identity Disorder people could have their legs chopped off, get wheeled out of theatre, and then the surgeons could wheel in the accidental amputees and quickly attach the legs that were just cut off. Everyone’s happy all round, yes, especially if they’re paying?

Simultaneous breast reduction and augmentation?

How about harvesting facial hair follicles and transplanting them to someone's face?

Mr Potato Head having a swap shop.

RVN123 · 07/01/2022 21:54

[quote EmpressCixi]@RVN123
I am saying their consent is not the primary concern..

Back tracking I see. So from originally saying “nothing to do with” we are now at “not the primary concern’[/quote]
Yeah Empress. It's me who is backtracking.

Good Lord.

Let's just remember its YOU who thinks operations cannot be unethical if they are paid for and consent is given.
Snicker.......

FlyingOink · 07/01/2022 21:55

Can we swap eyes too? I always fancied green ones. And maybe a bit less short sighted.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 07/01/2022 21:55

Sounds like misogyny to me, how dare you call a uterus “medical waste” that’s even worse than the “grow a baby in a bag” comments upthread. The uterus is the giver of life, not a bag and not medical waste

Look…people can read, you quoted someone upthead to prove your argument when everyone could see that the poster hadn’t said any such thing

And you started the ‘bin’ bit….and thats where it would go in the medical waste bin

Sophoclesthefox · 07/01/2022 21:58

This really needs a 2022 reboot, doesn’t it? Mash up with Mr Potto Head, maybe? (SWIDT?)

It’s going to get much much harder for everyone to play, not just those of us with shakey hands 🤣

bordermidgebite · 07/01/2022 21:59

I'd like working knees

EmpressCixi · 07/01/2022 21:59

Hey, remember when you first came into the thread and pretended you were neutral and objective?

Me? I never! I’ve said from post 1 that today aspects of our biology relating to biological sex CAN and ARE changeable, therefore it is more accurate to state
“If born a male, you will most probably die genetically male”

Just swap “biologically” with “genetically”

And you (plural) have all missed amongst the arguing of what puberty blockers do or don’t do, that even you are asserting that puberty blockers do alter biology. Right? Bone density is a biological trait. And as I’ve shown over and over other biological traits can be changed...swap vagina for penis, hysterectomy...so no uterus, add or remove breasts, add or remove body hair, voice change surgery, complete change of blood hormones from one sex to the other sex. All this are biological. So “biological” in the original statement is inaccurate.

And every time you (plural) assert that sex cannot be changed, what do you use as proof? Genetics. DNA. Because it’s true you cannot yet change your DNA (except for that gene therapy for one type of blindness, not sex chromosomes yet, but I digress). So again, you are supporting the fact that the statement should replace biologically with genetically. Because that’s the only irrefutable bit.

RVN123 · 07/01/2022 22:00

@FlyingOink

Can we swap eyes too? I always fancied green ones. And maybe a bit less short sighted.
Flying Oink, if you have nice brown ones I'll swap you my greens?

Still short sighed though sorry.

FlyingOink · 07/01/2022 22:00

@bordermidgebite

I'd like working knees
I'm not swapping knees for eyes, that's just silly.

I'd be able to see even less with trousers on

bordermidgebite · 07/01/2022 22:00

Oh and I'd donate breasts for good knees

FlyingOink · 07/01/2022 22:01

Flying Oink, if you have nice brown ones I'll swap you my greens?

Still short sighed though sorry.

Deal! You'll have to judge for yourself whether they're nice though

EmpressCixi · 07/01/2022 22:04

@RVN123
Let's just remember its YOU who thinks operations cannot be unethical if they are paid for and consent is given.

No, I don’t. You’re misquoting me. I asked “How can it be unethical if the person is consenting and paying for it”

And your answer was “Ethics has nothing to do with if the person is willing...”

You couldn’t answer my question could you? You really got egg on your face by saying consent and ethics have nothing to do with each other. So then you back track and say consent is “not the primary concern”

Oh, ignorance equaled only by arrogance.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 07/01/2022 22:04

And you (plural) have all missed amongst the arguing of what puberty blockers do or don’t do, that even you are asserting that puberty blockers do alter biology. Right? Bone density is a biological trait.

Yes, we know environmental influences (e.g. medication, prolonged malnutrition) affect phenotype.

extract

So there I was then, finally, showing up to online specialized transmasculine support groups for people seeking or recovering from phallo, between hours spent hustling to call (six) surgeons’ offices about consults and my PCP’s office (19 times) for referrals and my insurance company (17 times — that I wrote down, anyway) for the necessary authorizations. And here they were, these trans and nonbinary people of many races and locations, coming together to try to hold one another’s questions and fears about which donor site on their body to use, and how the site had (or hadn’t) recovered, and how much sensation they had (“My whole dick feels like a giant clit!” one elated guy described his rare, very best-case outcome once to widened eyes all around), and what size testicle implants they got if they got testicles (which are optional) at all, and which surgeon they went to and when could you go back to work and who in the world took care of you, and did anybody else have this or that or a whole series of fistulas or strictures around their new urethral hookup that rerouted their pee and is also optional, and did anyone else just leave their urethra where it is? Once, a pre-op 52-year-old Black man who was struggling with money and his disability and insurance asked if having a penis was really going to make a difference, relieve any of this pain he was barely surviving, and I watched as the post-op group members calmly assured him that, yes, it would. If he could just hang on, hang on, hang in there.

“It gave me a little more hope,” he told me later, “to keep going.”

“I would rather have died on the table than not had the surgery,” one Korean American guy with great sweaters responded (and, like everybody here, gave me permission to repeat), to a chorus of nodding Zoom heads.

It has happened at least once that someone did die. I was fully ready to, by which I mean I’d just spent nearly the last of my savings, which I’d burned navigating the emotional-mental-social-medical-legal-extreme-marginalization mindfuck shitshow of transitioning, on a burial plot just in case. One of the nodding heads in the group belonged to a nonbinary white person who was still horizontal in recovery from having had, a week prior, the worst happen, which was that after their procedure, in which all the fat and skin had been stripped from their left forearm from wrist to nearly elbow, along with major nerves, an artery, and veins, and then shaped into a tube and connected, in careful layers, to skin and blood vessels and nerves in their pelvis, their new penis had failed.

It^died. On&them.

But here they were, already getting ready for their surgeons to harvest a whole other part of their body within the month with zero hesitation. Because those three days they’d had their penis, they said, before being rushed into an eight-hour surgery that couldn’t save it — the feeling of it, even just for one moment, even still bloody and painful and packed with stitches: worth it. And I understood that immediately when, after a yearlong surgery waiting list and a deep quarantine and an anguished prerequisite COVID test I would either pass or lose my date over, I woke up last December in a hospital bed and before even glancing toward my lap, the room spinning from anesthesia and my lungs partially collapsed from four and a half hours on surgical ventilation and hundreds — plural — of stitches and a 40-square-inch hole in my thigh where I’d been skinned down to the muscle, I could suddenly feel, in a way I could never have fathomed, that this was what being alive was.

end of extract

Explain to me how prioritising the integrity of tissue for a recipient will improve outcomes for donors.

HaroldMeeker · 07/01/2022 22:05

I'm feeling poetic tonight. Apologies to Ayres, P.

Oh I wish I'd looked out for my sex,
And spotted the cause and effects.
We're told "just be kind",
Feel i'm losing my mind,
Oh I wish I'd looked out for my sex.

The insidious creeping divide
Brushes boundaries and worries aside.
Womanly just like me
'Cept for standing to pee,
The sexism, i can't abide.

Now its not just my tits and long hair,
That they want, they've decided its fair
To grab vag and womb,
From my sex, to consume,
To give males a chance to childbear.

Oh I wish I'd looked out for my sex.
I wish I'd demanded respect
For those who are women
We're actually human.
Oh I wish I'd looked out for my sex.