If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

[daisiesonmydress]

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

Is the baby consenting ?

Oh I forgot the baby is chattel like women should be

@RVN123
You are missing the point. It doesn’t matter what the arteries supply, the same basic ones are there in men and women in the same overall configuration. So you would have adequate vascular vessels to graft on to a transplanted uterus to provide adequate blood supply.

You’re getting lost in the weeds of bits that are irrelevant.

[quote EmpressCixi]@FlyingOink
Empress's nonsense about transmen who take or have taken blockers have big thick manly bones when we know that was an out and out lie.

But that’s not what I said. I said transmen who took blockers and then went on to have hormone therapy to transition develop bone configurations, robustness and density that are more male biologically than female. They do not lose bone density like transwomen do, they maintain or gain bone density and depending on the testosterone and physical activity, their bone mass abs robustness will be greater than that of a typical adult female.

Those saying this is nonsense have not understood the study I posted as they have misquoted sections out of context...eg the further research section will always say “more long term study needed”...but that doesn’t erase the results of the study itself.

Please note these are the posters claimed that transmen who took blockers had “crumbling spines” and a loss in bone density which is the true nonsense.

“Prior to the initiation of GAHT, a study of 23 trans men and 23 control women showed similar areal BMD, trabecular, and cortical vBMD by QCT and bone turnover markers despite higher rates of smoking and lower vitamin D levels in the trans men [39].” (Bone density maintained)

Even before hormone therapy, puberty blockers for transmen resulted in no bone density loss:

“Another study of 16 trans men prior to hormonal treatment were compared to age-matched cis women and again DXA and body composition measures were similar, as was reported physical activity [40].” zero bone density loss

Gains in bone health come after hormone therapy....as I said...

“After 1 year of treatment with testosterone, undecanoate therapy in 23 trans men mentioned above, bone formation and resorption markers both increased; however, aBMD measures did not change significantly [39].” increase bone health, zero bone density loss

“An early study of 15 trans men showed a 7.8% increase in BMD at the femoral neck but no change at the spine over 2 years. One-third had undergone oophorectomy. The findings were similar among the testosterone-naïve patients as well as those previously treated [41].”
bone density increase

“A larger study of 199 trans men studied at baseline and then 1 year after testosterone treatment showed statistically significant increases in the total hip BMD (+ 1.04%, 95% CI 0.64–1.44%, p < 0.001) but not the femoral neck.” bone density increase

“A 2017 meta-analysis examining 247 trans men showed no significant difference seen in BMD at 12 and 24 months compared with baseline prior to hormone initiation at the at the lumbar spine, femoral neck, or total femur [38]” zero bone density loss

“Recently, 10-year data was published on a group of 543 trans men followed with serial DXA [35] (Fig. 3C). Again, low BMD was not seen at the start in trans men with overall Z-scores of 0.01 ± 1.14 g/cm2 although 4.3% of subjects had low BMD for age (defined as Z-score < −2.0). In the group that had DXA repeated at 10 years (n = 70), BMD was similar but L-spine Z-score had increased by 0.34.”
increased bone health, zero bone density loss

“Although the overall increases in BMD in trans men are not significant across studies, it is reassuring that there is not a decline in BMD”

“This may relate to some the effects of testosterone on body composition as well as direct effects on the bone. Several studies have reported body composition changes with testosterone that include an increase in muscle mass and decrease in fat mass.”

“A study of 50 Belgian trans men (aged 37 ± 8 years) treated with testosterone for an average of 9 years after GAS were compared to 50 cis women (aged 38 ± 8 years) [40]. The trans men had 9% more lean body mass and almost 30% lower fat mass with a higher waist:hip ratio and higher grip strength [40]....”

As I said, the bone size or robustness increases:
“Statistical models were used to compare trans men before and after GAHT with female controls and found a positive association with bone size and endosteal circumference at the radius even after adjusting for grip strength suggesting a direct effect of testosterone on the bone (p = 0.003) ”

Again all from the same study I posted.[/quote]
You're relying on the 'zero density loss'.

As explained, it should be going up.

If my monthly salary does not drop, but the cost of living increases by 25% due to inflation, I am still being underpaid.

@FlyingOink
You posted a load of stuff you didn't understand and you lied about what it said.

No I did not. Show me where the studies say that’s transmen have “crumbling spines” and “massive loss in bone density”.....it doesn’t. It says exactly what I said it did.

I'm planning on being decapitated and then my head stitched together with a cats body.
My cat consents to the procedure and I'm also happy about it, I've paid a mad scientist to do it so that's okay too.
I can't wait.
Please call me Mrs Fluffy Whiskerson from now on.

This is the thread that keeps on giving.

Fun, innit?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes
you're relying on the 'zero density loss'. As explained, it should be going up.

Look, it’s zero difference or bone density loss compared to controls not compared to what it was when they started. It is going up, as much as or in some studies, more than in the controls.

@bordermidgebite

Is the baby consenting ?

Oh I forgot the baby is chattel like women should be

Did your baby consent to existing? Thought not.

Secondly, don’t know what planet you are on but organs are indeed taken from cadavers (recently deceased) not merely “tissue”.

Why did you put tissue in quotes? Are you not aware of tissue donation (skin, bone, tendons, corneas, heart valves etc)? A cadaver is a dead body, you would not consider a dead body for organ transplant only an individual with brainstem death or someone being kept alive intensive care where circulatory death is inevitable.

As for ethics - do you not consider there are ethical considerations in requesting transmen who have not had puberty blockers or testosterone to have a major operation that is a total hysterectomy?

Not sure how many times I can say it. It is unethical to create an embryo that has no chance of survival as an experiment and allow it to live past 14 days at the moment. Maybe five weeks sometime in the ‘next few years’. Possibly.

What part of an experimental male pregnancy is NOT experimental? A human feotus has NOT even been allowed to be grown in a bag like the sheep have been.

Why do you persist in playing this game?

Do you honestly think the first embryo implanted in a male implanted uterus would be kept alive naturally within that uterus? Exactly what part of the male bodies control systems will have been reprogrammed to do this?

So if there is no chance for the embryo / feotus to be sustained naturally - this becomes an experiment. Very different from a female womb transplant where the female body has the parts, the control systems and natural chemicals to sustain that life. This will be guided by the ethics frameworks decided internationally.

Just because it is privately done, doesn’t mean they can avoid international ethics guidelines.

You're relying on the 'zero density loss'.
Also on us believing all the transmen on testosterone were also on blockers, when the study above mentions an average age in the late thirties and the number of girls treated in this was at that time was minimal.

Empress is comparing women on anabolics versus women not on anabolics. It's got fuck all to do with the fact young teenage girls who have their puberty blocked have weak bones and don't grow.

If I went and got testosterone injections I'd expect to have more lean body mass. Why on earth would bodybuilders spend lots of money on various ways to add extra testosterone into their system if it wasn't going to help them build muscle?

Empress said this testosterone undid the damage caused by not having a normal female puberty. The studies don't say that, anywhere.

@Sophoclesthefox

You also don’t take vaginal cuffs from women who are donating their reproductive anatomy, as a vaginal cuff only exists after you have a hysterectomy. It’s the new end of a vaginal canal, formed by sewing the sides of the upper vagina together to stop your other organs prolapsing. You couldn’t “donate” it.

Just a demonstrative little nugget of nonsense from the smorgasbord on offer.

You do from cadavers. You could from transmen if they consent. They’re not going to want/need their vagina.

So far we have uterus implants with cervix (plug and play compatible), four hours a week of warehouse work makes your bones grow, what else have I missed? Men have long nose bones that get chopped in a rhinoplasty so archaeologists wouldn't be able to tell their skeletons were male, what else?

Jeckel and Hyde now?

@RVN123
Ethics has NOTHING to do with if the patient is willing or paying for a procedure. Are you serious?

Yes, I find it strange you think ethics has nothing to do with whether the person is consenting to the surgery? So consent is what, not part of ethical clinical practice?

Jessica Alves is proof we're mere moments away from males getting pregnant. You missed that corker.

[quote EmpressCixi]@PurgatoryOfPotholes
you're relying on the 'zero density loss'. As explained, it should be going up.

Look, it’s zero difference or bone density loss compared to controls not compared to what it was when they started. It is going up, as much as or in some studies, more than in the controls.[/quote]
But these aren't children on puberty blockers are they? They are adults taking testosterone. Are you purposefully trying to conflate the two?

[quote EmpressCixi]@FlyingOink
You posted a load of stuff you didn't understand and you lied about what it said.

No I did not. Show me where the studies say that’s transmen have “crumbling spines” and “massive loss in bone density”.....it doesn’t. It says exactly what I said it did.[/quote]
Information on that has already been posted, but you can Google Lupron side effects or Lupron class action.

I never said transmen had crumbling spines either you liar, I said girls who have had puberty blocking drugs (i.e. hardly any transmen!) have reduced bone density and yes, have had crumbling spines and jaws and multiple fractures.

[quote EmpressCixi]@PurgatoryOfPotholes
you're relying on the 'zero density loss'. As explained, it should be going up.

Look, it’s zero difference or bone density loss compared to controls not compared to what it was when they started. It is going up, as much as or in some studies, more than in the controls.[/quote]
Nuh-uh. You're thinking of the segment discussing current adult female humans on testosterone (who had not been on blockers) against adult female humans not on testosterone.

Scroll down.

There is no mention of a control group for the children being monitored.

extract

The Effect of Pubertal Blockade on Bone Health in Trans Adolescents

GnRH analogues are frequently employed to provide puberty blockade in adolescents with gender incongruence or gender dysphoria. From their use in other medical conditions such as prostate cancer, their deleterious effects on the bone are well known, although these have the potential to be reversible if treatments are stopped or add back therapies can be given [47,48].

Thirty-four adolescents were treated with GnRH analogues followed by GAHT and studied with serial bone densities until age 22 [49]. Many were already in later stages of puberty as the average age of GnRHa initiation was 14.9 ± 1.9 years for the 15 trans girls and 15.0 ± 2.0 for the 19 trans boys. Low-dose GAHT began at 16.6 ± 1.4 years for the trans girls and 16.4 for the trans boys. Gonadectomy was considered at a minimum age of 18 with continuation of GAHT afterwards. Similar to adult trans women, the trans girls had lower baseline Z-scores than the population mean prior to initiation of any therapy (areal BMD Z-score − 0.77 ± 0.89, bone mineral apparent density (BMAD) Z-scores − 0.44 ± 1.10). During GnRH monotherapy in the trans girls, Z-scores did show a non-significant decrease but after initiation of GAHT, despite an increase in absolute aBMD, the Z-score at age 22 was lower than at the start of treatment, with 6 subjects (40%) with a LS a BMD Z-score of < −2.0. The baseline Z-scores in the trans boys were better with average areal BMD Z-score 0.17 ± 1.18, BMAD Z-score 0.28 ± 0.90). However, Z-scores in the trans boys also showed an expected drop during GnRHa treatment. Similarly, they did not fully make up their bone loss as Z-scores at age 22 were still lower than baseline (aBMD Z-score − 0.33 ± 1.12 and BMAD Z-score average − 0.033 ± 0.95), despitea small increase in absolute aBMD. One transman at age 22 had a Z-score of < −2.0.

But these aren't children on puberty blockers are they? They are adults taking testosterone. Are you purposefully trying to conflate the two?

Yes!

You do from cadavers. You could from transmen if they consent. They’re not going to want/need their vagina.

This is astonishing ignorant and transphobic. Have you never met any transmen ever? It is more routine than not for transmen to keep their vaginas.

Find me a brick wall someone please

Consent is part

But not the be all and end all

Usually the starting point is what is the benefit and risks

What exactly is the benefit to the individuals concerned of womb transplants ?

Make them feel better ? But fixes nothing ?

From their use in other medical conditions such as prostate cancer, their deleterious effects on the bone are well known

Says it all doesn't it? It harms the bones of grown men, so let's give it to little girls...

@Lovelyricepudding

Secondly, don’t know what planet you are on but organs are indeed taken from cadavers (recently deceased) not merely “tissue”.

Why did you put tissue in quotes? Are you not aware of tissue donation (skin, bone, tendons, corneas, heart valves etc)? A cadaver is a dead body, you would not consider a dead body for organ transplant only an individual with brainstem death or someone being kept alive intensive care where circulatory death is inevitable.

As for ethics - do you not consider there are ethical considerations in requesting transmen who have not had puberty blockers or testosterone to have a major operation that is a total hysterectomy?

A cadaver is a dead body, you would not consider a dead body for organ transplant only an individual with brainstem death or someone being kept alive intensive care where circulatory death is inevitable.

The brain dead individual on a ventilator in your example is called a beating heart cadaver as they are still dead.

No one is proposing that transmen should be requested to have a full hysterectomy. Many transmen want a full hysterectomy because having periods worsens their dysphoria. They are simply a potential pool of donors. As in those that are having a hysterectomy done anyway, might be willing to then donate their uterus et al to a transwoman.

[quote EmpressCixi]@RVN123
Ethics has NOTHING to do with if the patient is willing or paying for a procedure. Are you serious?

Yes, I find it strange you think ethics has nothing to do with whether the person is consenting to the surgery? So consent is what, not part of ethical clinical practice?[/quote]
You still haven't covered the ethics of taking these organs from women? Or do you not think women need any ethical consideration? As for 'not needing their vaginas (and uterus etc) - what do you think helps keep the bladder and rectum in place? And you are sending these women straight into menopause which does lead to bone thinning. And anyway, why shouldn't a transman decide to get pregnant?