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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

544 replies

WhiteFlagHeldAloft · 24/12/2021 16:16

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

OP posts:
TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 24/12/2021 16:23

Who is saying that it is okay not to treat you with courtesy?

GrimDamnFanjo · 24/12/2021 16:24

Well I'm gender critical and happy to respect your pronouns.
We're not one huge monolith Borg type thing so I'm not sure why you think all GC women would be rude to you?

bordermidgebite · 24/12/2021 16:25

Sounds like you need to change who you mix with

GrimDamnFanjo · 24/12/2021 16:26

And as you know pronoun usage is the very least of GC concerns.

BlueberryCheezecake · 24/12/2021 16:26

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BlueberryCheezecake · 24/12/2021 16:27

@GrimDamnFanjo

And as you know pronoun usage is the very least of GC concerns.
Then how come there's thread after thread about it on these boards? And how come so many posters here actively refuse to use a trans person's pronouns?
Flapjak · 24/12/2021 16:27

I would argue that women have been dragged into this, by the fact that an organisation such as Stonewall aggressively demands that transwomen are women and no debate, that woman and female and motherhoidod shouldnt be used, that any man who says he is a woman , is a woman, even if it is just part time like pip buncy and that he / she should be able to access female changing rooms and toilets. Anyone that supports the ideology behind 'transgenderism' is no friend of women, which is a seperate issue to those people who have genuine gender dysphoria

Doyoumind · 24/12/2021 16:27

I think you'll find the vast majority of people here will treat you with respect and courtesy. Perhaps not if you don't act with respect yourself. I think you've swallowed the lie that we're all evil witches. Far from it in fact.

NeedsCharging · 24/12/2021 16:28

Practically every thread on this board, on a daily basis.

Name two.

EverNapping · 24/12/2021 16:28

@theonlylivingboyinnewcross Many of the threads I have seen on here are people wanting to refuse to use an individual's preferred pronouns...

KimikosNightmare · 24/12/2021 16:30

Whilst it is very sad that Magdalen Berns died so young I found her take on all this very off- putting in the attacks she used to make on Blaire White and just going out of her way to be rude. Ironic now, given how vocal Blaire White has been in support of JK Rowling.

I'm happy to use preferred pronouns too.

astoundedgoat · 24/12/2021 16:31

I'm gender critical, and regard it as the height of rudeness to address anybody in any way OTHER than the pronouns and name they wish used.

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 24/12/2021 16:31

[quote EverNapping]@theonlylivingboyinnewcross Many of the threads I have seen on here are people wanting to refuse to use an individual's preferred pronouns...[/quote]
Can you link to them, please?

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 24/12/2021 16:32

Where are you meeting all these GC people if you rarely leave home?

How does someone misuse your pronouns when talking to you: the second person isn’t gendered in English? An example would help.

I will refer to you happily as a trans woman. Is that OK?

TooWicked · 24/12/2021 16:32

I don’t personally know any gender critical people that deliberately misgender trans people so I can’t speak for them.

I do my best to respect pronouns although I admit that I occasionally unintentionally slip up - It takes a lot of effort to gaslight myself and police my language.

Gizmo79 · 24/12/2021 16:33

Ooo, popcorn time.

OhHolyJesus · 24/12/2021 16:33

why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy?

Could you expand on what you mean by this OP, as in, what common courtesy you feel is not afforded to you but is afforded to others?

Doyoumind · 24/12/2021 16:33

@NeedsCharging

Practically every thread on this board, on a daily basis.

Name two.

I mean, it's true if the threads about the sex offenders calling themselves women are included but that's because it's about something so much bigger than pronouns. But generally there are other things that are far more important to worry about.
Babdoc · 24/12/2021 16:36

I think you are entitled to view yourself in whatever way you want, even when that is at odds with reality. But you cannot expect that other people will be willing to deny reality in order to accommodate your belief.
Maybe a religious analogy will help?
As a Christian, I believe that Jesus was the human incarnation of God. But I cannot insist that atheists, Muslims etc all agree, and pray alongside me, or attend my church.
The more aggressive atheists can be quite rude with remarks about “sky fairies” and “imaginary friends”, but they have every right to say such things, even if I don’t like them. Nobody has the right to impose their beliefs on others, or compel the speech of others to suit themselves.

donquixotedelamancha · 24/12/2021 16:36

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to?

I think the vast majority of people (including trans people) who oppose self ID have no issue being courteous to trans women and treating them socially as a woman.

There problem comes when discussing public policy as it applies to areas where biology is important. People don't like being forced to used particular words which obfuscate the truth.

I think it's in trans people's interests to be clear because otherwise you end up with the situation that (for example) putting rapists in women's prisons is argued for as 'trans rights', which fuels transphobic.

Now there are some feminists who, generally through frustration at their own experience, will choose not to be courteous- I think that's their right, as long as they aren't harassing anyone.

There are also bigots who just want to be abusive. Generally I don't think these people claim to be feminists (certainly not compared to the numbers who claim to be trans) but inevitably there will be some.

I have trans friends and I've seen real transphobic first hand. Women campaigning for their rights is not the same.

Waitwhat23 · 24/12/2021 16:36

I'm happy to use preferred pronouns. I don't want to be forced to state my own personal pronouns for a variety of different reasons. The vast majority of threads around this issue are about places of employment making it mandatory to do so (Scottish Government for example) and people asking for help on how to challenge this.

Other posters won't use preferred pronouns for their own reasons and the compelled speech aspect is a big part of this for them I believe.

As a pp has said, this isn't a hive mind.

MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry · 24/12/2021 16:36

Why are you asking here on MN rather than asking the people who are disrespecting you OP?

Concestor · 24/12/2021 16:36

I've thought about this a lot, and the reason I have such a problems with using preferred pronouns is because you're asking me to collude in a damaging lie, to pretend I believe in your religion when I but only don't but I believe your ideology is harmful to women and our rights.
So I simply can't go along with what you want because of the wider issues. It's like asking me to agree with an anorexic that they are fat. It's not true, and it's harmful.

Shedmistress · 24/12/2021 16:37

I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born.

Who is the person that decides to remind you in every sentence of how you were born? Have you asked them?

LumpySpacedPrincess · 24/12/2021 16:38

I'm concerned that autistic girls who don't fit sex stereotypes want to take drugs that will negatively impact their lives. I'm concerned sex stereotypes are used to define who is a woman and sex as a category is diminished. I'm worried that women can no longer meet without males being present. I'm worried that lesbians now have no space that is male free, none.

I'm worried about women being hounded from their jobs for stating sex is real and relevant. Male crime reported as female crime is distressing. Male rapists in female prisons is appalling. Anti science and pseudo religious thinking taught as fact, huge worry. Crikey, don't even get me started on women's sport.

OP, women have a right to be concerned as women lose rights and men gain more rights. Live your life in peace, I'm sure you are a lovely person. Maybe we could all work together to get rid of stifling sex stereotypes so men could be freely feminine and women masculine. Smile

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