Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

[WhiteFlagHeldAloft]

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

You WFH, have only ever dated your current DP and avoid SM like the plague…

And yet you’re able to give examples of more than one GC individual (some of whom ‘know’ you well enough to have been addressing you as ‘she’ to your face) who’ve suddenly refused to use your preferred pronouns.

As a PP has pointed out, it doesn’t really add up.

I would use your preferred pronouns.

I would not, however, refer to you as a woman. I would refer to you as a transwoman.

Forcing someone to use language they do not agree with is coercion. If other people are happy being coerced, good for them.

I would absolutely refer to you in the way in which you would like and respect and wish you well. What I won't do is be compelled to declare my pronouns on work emails or any of the other big self-declarations that are being rolled out in one fell swoop

@Artichokeleaves

Let's start with the position that we both treat each other with courtesy, which includes not requiring me to say things I don't believe or agree with because you want me to - I am not requiring this of you - and includes respecting that some female people need female only spaces and sex based rights because their identity is sex based.

Live and let live and we'll all get along. Require that I put your needs, wishes, feelings and rights above mine and that you expect a high standard of care and consideration from me that won't be reciprocating while you remove things from me that you don't value so don't see why I do? No. I won't be rude to you but I won't be co operating.

I agree with this. On a personal level I try to be polite and treat people respectfully, but I would for example find it impossible to call a rapist claiming to be a woman “she” even if I was threatened with being in contempt of court as recently happened, not would I or could I refer to someone as a woman who has exposed themselves masturbating their penis in public. Neither could I call a transman who has chosen to ignore their GRC and give birth the father of their child. It becomes a very difficult situation when to satisfy your need for acceptance in your chosen identity other people are expecting what I see as impossible demands.

OP I am assuming that you are also getting push back from men. How do you deal with that? What is your take on the TRA transwomen who are appallingly rude to women, who threaten them and their families with rape, with being burned out of their homes, who find out their home addresses and congregate outside, who physically assault women at public meetings? How do you think women should respond to that level of rudeness?

ok but how come most transgenders still date the sex that they would have dated if they stayed the gender they were.

like if i was a boy who felt i was a girl, why would i not want to date a boy?? if i truly believed i was a girl... in some cases fair enough but a lot either swing both ways or turn into a transgender lesbian

also how come you can just put a wig on amd ohhh now your a woman!!! yepp ok ill just shave my head and call me a man

And merry Christmas to you OP

and a question

Why do some trans people insist on mi- gendering me? I do not identify as a gender. I am the sex that I am born as.
I am not cis anything.

Well I don't know you but if i did, would referring to you by your name be better. Then no one has to use pronouns and no one is unhappy.

Call yourself what you want, dress how you like etc

but you aren't biologically a woman

sex and gender are two separate things

and your partner is not a lesbian (even less so if you still have your male parts)

Exist away. I'm happy to offer you common courtesy, OP. I'd happily even offer my friendship. So long as you don't insist I actually believe you are literally a woman, and that you have a right to spaces/sports/awards etc that were designed for biological women.

Happy Christmas.

Looks like a hit and run.

On the chance that it's not and for the monitors... you wouldn't know I was GC. I do know and am friendly with several trans people in person, and I use their preferred pronouns, new names, and I don't bring up subjects likely to upset them, or put us anywhere where single sex spaces is a thing.

I tend to only use sex based pronouns of people who would prefer that I didn't when, for example, their sex and gender identity are both male until they fancy getting access to female prisons, or female sports categories.

Some excellent posts on this thread. Where, oh where is the OP, I wonder.

Because by calling you she, I am imposing a gender I don't identify with onto myself. If I told you to call yourself 'he' and followed it up with 'its only polite' you'd be pretty pissed off.

I don't believe in gender identity. I don't have one. I'm referred to as 'she' and always have been because I am female sex. If I refer to you as 'she' in recognition of a feminine gender identity then I can't use it for myself. To do so would be imposing a gender on me I don't identify with or believe in. I am not cisgender so referring to me as if I am (under the new meaning) is unacceptable to me - not only does it force a gender on me but also signs me up as a believer in an ideology that I reject. And currently I can't use another word - so it's either sign up to gender identity or be stripped of your own words for yourself.

I also work with vulnerable children. When adolescents have identity pronouns it puts me in an awful position. By calling a female 'he' for example, I'm denying my own beliefs, denying their sex and affirming the message that their body is wrong and that they will never be happy unless they modify it.

It will be a cold day in hell before I present that message to children. Gender identity is an ideology and in our society we currently don't allow cultural/religious beliefs to play out on children's bodies. Think castrati, foot binding, breast ironing, FGM. It's beholden on professionals to report risk of/cases of FGM not matter the sincerely held and often well intentioned belief behind the practice. Non-medically indicated bilateral mastectomies, hysterectomies, oopherectomies, puberty blocking, cross sex hormone doping on children for reasons of a belief system is abhorrent to me, and every time I call a young female 'he' or a young male 'she' I don't know that I'm not affirming that belief and practice.

I respect people's rights to belief. I respect that you have a sincerely held belief about yourself and your body and you can refer to yourself however you please. I will accept your belief in your gender identity and denial of your sex as fundamentally important to you, but I won't be compelled to share them.

As it happens, if we could accept gender identities without denying sex I would probably use preferred pronouns. I reply 'Wa-Alaikum-Salaam' when people say 'Salaam Alaikum' even though I don't believe this genuinely infers peace on someone. I wish people Happy Easter if they celebrate it despite not believing in the resurrection of Christ. There is politeness and compromise and flexibility when we all bumble along together with plurality of thought and belief.

If gender identity was treated as the held belief that it is, and sex was treated as the material reality that it is, and women could differentiate themselves from men, have services, protections and fair opportunities that recognise their sex, then I'd be more likely to concede to a respectful observation of your faith and use preferred pronouns on the understanding that this is a concession to politeness, not a shared belief.

I will never respect the tenets of your faith as I believe its fundamentally sexist, homophobic and damaging to children, but I respect your right to hold it.

I'd like the same courtesy back and to not be admonished and shamed for being the equivalent of a gender atheist. Your post is about courtesy, maybe you should practice some too.

Has this turned up on Twitter yet or are people too busy doing Christmas Eve stuff?

Ops fucked off then. Was it a plop and run op, or are you just super busy?

Common courtesy. A courtesy which only ever goes one way

Kudupoo beautifully explained.

Would be nice if the trans women had the common courtesy of not wanting to upset women.

So not using shared changing rooms, etc so as not to upset women who don’t feel comfortable sharing an intimate space with a male bodied person. Not taking part in women’s sports so they don’t tread on women’s toes. Not accepting women’s prizes, etc.

I mean it wouldn’t take much to respect this would it? 🤷‍♀️

Ah a one post and run, despite some very thoughtful and articulate answers from MNetters. So I'm assuming that those ones will be ignored and any more controversial ones will appear on Twitter soon. It's so bloody predictable and such a waste of time. Disingenuous.

I am a woman who is happy to be referred to as cis, as I am not trans. I am also on this board to try and understand where the GC and their concerns are coming from. I believe that sex and gender are two separate things.
What I have learned so far, and this is purely my observation, is that although many GC people would not deliberately set out to upset or hurt trans people, it is impossible for them to be completely respectful and accepting of trans people, as the basis of being trans is that sex is your physical parts/chromosomes etc but your gender identity is different. If GC people don’t believe that gender identity exists at all, they can never fully accept or respect it.
This, in my mind, is why it always reaches stalemate.
Going back to OPs statement about chromosomes/how they were born - it bemuses me to see so many comments on various threads about ‘changing sex’.
All of my trans friends, (I am definitely not speaking for all trans people here) like OP, are completely aware of how they were born, and know that nothing changes that fact. What they are doing with treatment is to make their bodies feel more in alignment with their gender. They are not trying to rewrite biology.
But people who don’t acknowledge gender identity are never going to accept that - which is why the debate is at an impasse.
I really hope some peace can be found.

As an outsider looking in to this GC world, it appears to me that the real problems lie with predatory men, not trans women.

As an outsider looking in to this GC world, it appears to me that the real problems lie with predatory men, not trans women.

There is an overlap.

Calmyourselfdown
I am a woman who is happy to be referred to as cis, as I am not trans.

I am not trans and do not need a descriptor to say that I am not trans as one is not necessary.

I will also say that I respect people that identify as a specific gender, but that does not mean that I identify as any gender. I am the sex that I was born as.

@Kuachui

ok but how come most transgenders still date the sex that they would have dated if they stayed the gender they were.

like if i was a boy who felt i was a girl, why would i not want to date a boy?? if i truly believed i was a girl... in some cases fair enough but a lot either swing both ways or turn into a transgender lesbian

Because your gender (if you believe you have one) has no bearing on who you are attracted to

I'm attracted to men. If (for some reason) I had to live "as a man" I would still be attracted to men.