Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

[WhiteFlagHeldAloft]

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

Its disengenious. That's the problem.

It's not okay for you to be treated without respect. I will always address a person with the pronouns they feel comfortable with. Where i draw the line though, is organisations like Stonewall shoving information at people and refusing to engage in actual conversations if people do not agree with their ideas.

Waiting to see if op comes back to see if it's worth a thought out reply...

Actually I would like to revise my post - given the length of your initial post and the detail you go into, I think it's likely to be the latter than the former. I think you've come here to vent.

I really take objection to this use of language -

I just want to be allowed to exist

'Exist' has an expansive, dramatic, visceral meaning. To most people, it means 'to live' as in, to physically be alive.

When people use 'existing' in this way in their language, it insinuates that the people who disagree with them on xyz somehow have a problem that they're alive.

This rhetoric is used to paint feminists as violent, as bad people. It's used to automatically claim victimhood in the conversation. It insinuates that anyone who disagrees with some aspects of trans activism somehow pose a direct physical threat to the lives (existence) of trans people and because of that it's been used remarkably well to shut women up. This is not acceptable as is emotionally manipulative.

Common courtesy would suggest that posters perhaps spend a little time reading the words of others, using empathy, maybe asking questions, considering the feelings of others, rather than banging in, announcing their arrival with a very long post about themselves, berating women for doing something wrong and ending with a bit of a petulant huff at women for not doing as they're told.

But that's just my female socialisation talking. It's a hard habit to shake.

To be honest, I’ll indulge toddlers and young children in pretending they are something they aren’t- mine all went through phases of wanting to be a cat/dog/shark etc. I’m deeply suspicious of grown ups wanting to be something they aren’t and I don’t think it’s kind to go along with those fallacies, not when they are outright lies, and detrimental to the rights of women.

I’ll go along with your new name, but that’s my limit. I won’t be complicit in anything else.

You (or the character you've invented) are supposedly 'not arguing that you've changed your genetic makeup' yet you object to being described as a man. Transwomen are male and you are a man. That isn't 'disrespectful', it's simply factual. It doesn't imply 'hatred' any more than saying a cat is a cat.

@ArabellaScott

Common courtesy would suggest that posters perhaps spend a little time reading the words of others, using empathy, maybe asking questions, considering the feelings of others, rather than banging in, announcing their arrival with a very long post about themselves, berating women for doing something wrong and ending with a bit of a petulant huff at women for not doing as they're told.

But that's just my female socialisation talking. It's a hard habit to shake.

Love this. So apt!

I'd call you your chosen name, and use the pronouns you would like.

However, if you went up against me in a scholarship for women in I would think it was very unfair. You won't have spent your school years with stereotypes telling you that girls do biology, boys do physics. Or had periods of maternity leave that stopped you publishing.

You might say that's a specific example that doesn't apply to you — but it will apply to a somebody trans somewhere. And there are hundreds of examples that all join together.

I'm not at all worried about you personally, but I worry about not being able to acknowledge that there's a difference between you and me.

Why should you be happier if people are forced to lie about whether you are male?

Where are you meeting all these GC people if you rarely leave home?

Quite.

@WhiteFlagHeldAloft

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

Parklife

@EarthSight

Actually I would like to revise my post - given the length of your initial post and the detail you go into, I think it's likely to be the latter than the former. I think you've come here to vent.

I really take objection to this use of language -

I just want to be allowed to exist

'Exist' has an expansive, dramatic, visceral meaning. To most people, it means 'to live' as in, to physically be alive.

When people use 'existing' in this way in their language, it insinuates that the people who disagree with them on xyz somehow have a problem that they're alive.

This rhetoric is used to paint feminists as violent, as bad people. It's used to automatically claim victimhood in the conversation. It insinuates that anyone who disagrees with some aspects of trans activism somehow pose a direct physical threat to the lives (existence) of trans people and because of that it's been used remarkably well to shut women up. This is not acceptable as is emotionally manipulative.

Yep.

Nobody has the right to impose their beliefs on others, or compel the speech of others to suit themselves.

/////

👏 👏

Doubt the op will return. Usual goady rubbish.

I'm gender critical, but I'm not a total dick! I don't believe that TWAW, but I would treat most trans women exactly as if they were women in most situations.

I just don't believe that any old man should be allowed to declare himself "a woman" specifically for the purpose of gaining access to vulnerable women. And I'm still hugely confused how this has become a "radical" or controversial belief.

FWIW the nature of social media is polarising. Many people with moderate views are scared to say anything at all, so mostly the voices that get heard are the loudest, angriest voices, on all sides.

@Artichokeleaves

Let's start with the position that we both treat each other with courtesy, which includes not requiring me to say things I don't believe or agree with because you want me to - I am not requiring this of you - and includes respecting that some female people need female only spaces and sex based rights because their identity is sex based.

Live and let live and we'll all get along. Require that I put your needs, wishes, feelings and rights above mine and that you expect a high standard of care and consideration from me that won't be reciprocating while you remove things from me that you don't value so don't see why I do? No. I won't be rude to you but I won't be co operating.

This is a great post

Happy to swap pronouns in return for people with penises not using domestic violence refuges, female prisons and women's changing rooms. Also people who were born males not participating in women's sports.

@Ceramide

Why should you be happier if people are forced to lie about whether you are male?

This is what bothers me. I feel like I'd be lying.

And also, very very very few TW actually pass. It is usually extremely obvious that they are biologically male.

It just feels like agreeing to lie. I followed a link to a trans sub on Reddit recently with a lot of people posting photos of themselves asking if they pass. Many follow TW are responding to their photos saying they definitely pass, they look great etc. But they absolutely don't pass. It just feels like levels and layers of lies.

And an end to the attacks and what we have fought for.

You say you "identify as a woman". I believe that is disrespectful to women. Women do not "identify" as women, they just are. Being a woman is not an identity. If it was, you could define it in terms other than "adult human female". But female biology is the ONLY characteristic that all women share.

When males say they "live" or "identify" as a woman, the vast majority of the time, the expression of that manifests itself in reductive stereotypes of what a woman is - long hair, dresses and skirts, make up. Transwomen will say how they feel "more emotional" or "more submissive" as a result of the cross-sex hormones they are taking showing that is what they think women are - emotional, submissive, etc.

Our ability to recognise a male or female person is hardwired in us. To expect people to ignore this instinct and remember your preferred pronouns is arrogant and controlling.

You ask why people can't be respectful and remember your preferred pronouns. I ask why you can't be respectful of the fact that people have enough to think about besides remembering how you preferred to be addressed when being spoken about in the third person.

You have made a lifestyle choice. Whatever the genesis of that choice was, it is no one else's job to validate it. In English, we use the pronouns "he/him" for male people and "she/her" for female people. If I "read" you as male, then I will use "he/him" if I need to refer to you.

I can't participate in this charade of pretending that men are women and vice versa. It does nothing to further how we think of the place of men and women in society. I see it as just reinforcing gender stereotypes.

I also think using opposite sex pronouns for people on their say so is the thin end of the wedge. It reinforces the idea that some men are women and vice versa.

Maybe I missed this, but... How would I know what your pronouns are? You might just be a man in a dress.

And yes, like others have said above, it just feels like a lie.

@justaftb

And yes, like others have said above, it just feels like a lie.

People lie constantly. All the time, literally. Which is all good if it's JUST about feelings.

But it's not just about feelings, that's the issue for me.