Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

[WhiteFlagHeldAloft]

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

I would address you as what you are, a man. You can call yourself whatever you like, have whatever surgery and take whatever medication you want to mask your biological self, but you are a man. Your DNA, skeleton, genetics, are all male, if someone dug you up in 100 years, they would find the skeleton of a man. I don't care what someone identifies as and I'll call them by the name they wish to be called, but I won't play along with the stupid charade that you can change your sex/gender, whatever you want to call it, because you can't.

Why is the trans definition of a woman (anyone can be a woman) trump the lived experience of a biological woman?

Why can't that have a common courtesy and be respected as being important and valid?

I'm perfectly happy to be civil, but when I'm told that i can't have my own identity and protections and this must be dictated by males its upsetting. Especially when they go on about how they are deserving of respect without acknowledging how this impacts others negatively and is disrespectful in its own way.

Its a position that sets out with bad faith and is designed to set women up as bigots and attackers. And this whole thread is set up to demonise anyone who raises objections to the belief that sex is made up and being a woman is all in your head.

Sorry but this thread isn't about exploring issues.

you sound like a nice thoughtful person.

i'll speak how i like though thanks, and i use pronouns to refer to sex. i don't think compelled speech is courteous- especially when that compulsion suggests that men are women when they're not. please do me the courtesy of accepting my views. im not here to validate males with dysphoria, sorry.

I don't believe that 'woman' is an identity, a thought or feeling that can be instantiated in the mind of a man. I'm sorry but I can't afford respect to someone who identifies as something they are not. However, I would never deliberately and maliciously 'misgender' someone to their face.

@Apollo441

Happy to use preferred pronouns. You'll see a number of people lying or misrepresenting the GC position. We do have a problem with using preferred pronouns for individuals convicted of sexual or violent crimes and you will find threads about that.

I agree with this.

I used to have a trans colleague and I was careful to use her preferred first name and pronouns. I never slipped up, despite knowing her dead name. I would have found non-binary pronouns tricky, though.

I can honestly say I make an effort to remember everyone’s preferred names, including an ex-colleague who didn’t like her seven-syllable first name shortened, several people who prefer to be known by their middle names or nicknames and one client who “bought a title off the internet” and likes to be addressed as “Viscount Smith” (not actual title).

I don't think its engaging at all.

I'm sure you're a lovely person but for me the whole pronouns thing comes across as self indulgent particularly if it's really obvious someone is really a man or a woman.

Just not on my list of things to worry about - plus men not being offended isn't as important as women being safe.

So I for one will not be expending energy in addressing people a certain way, but wouldn't not do it out of principle either.

I am happy to refer to other people in whatever way they wish, whether it be gender based or anything else.

What I'm less happy with is being told that I and other biological women will be referred to as 'cis' by transpeople whether we like it or not, that we have to use pronouns at work whether we want to or not, and that if we believe scientific biological fact, then we are transphobic.

You see, the trouble is not with the many people like yourself OP, who are merely going about their daily lives, the trouble lies with the very few, very vocal, very aggressive others who expect their demands to trump ours, and woe betide us if we show any kind of resistance. Many of us are not being gender critical, it is simply that we spent the last century fighting the patriarchy for sex equality, and now we are having it taken away again.

I suspect the problem here is that women see this as a reciprocal conversation, in which they are stakeholders, with needs, views, beliefs and identities of their own.

Well, if I’m talking to you, the correct pronoun would be you.

@RedToothBrush So far, yes, you're right, there's no engagement. This was posted today though and so we might not get that engagement until these posts have been read (and there's a lot of them so keep up with so far). This might be one of those dump posts where OP just wanted to megaphone over the room, but I'm curious to see if there will be any more posting from the OP.

If you rarely leave home and don’t use social media, I don’t really see how you have had the “encounters” you claim. I think this whole post is disingenuous.

If I were talking about you, OP, I'd avoid referring to you as a man, because I'd assume that being trans, you'd find that distressing. That's courtesy.

I would not call you 'she' or a woman. That's asking me to say something that I don't believe. It's not courtesy, it's coercion.

Similarly, if you were religious and I wasn't, I wouldn't discourteously tell you that God doesn't exist every time I saw you, but I wouldn't pray with you either. It would be unreasonable for you to expect that.

If I knew you before knowing you were trans and it wasn’t obvious, as it often is, I would carry on using female pronouns, otherwise I would find it quite difficult and uncomfortable to try and use female pronouns and not slip up.

@GivenchyDahhling

If you rarely leave home and don’t use social media, I don’t really see how you have had the “encounters” you claim. I think this whole post is disingenuous.

You have a good point here.

Want to answer that op?

Also, I would like to ask - is this a genuine question?

A genuine question is one where the asker really doesn't know any of the answers and is very open.

Another scenario is where someone frames a statement or an expression as a question where what they're asking is rhetorical. They already know the answers and what the other points of views are (which would make everyone's responses here useless).

In that case, the asker just happens to have a certain point of view, and is trying to find a way to vocalise the frustration that people don't agree with them. Usually there's not much point in responding to that as the asker only wants to megaphone their opinion and anger.

OP, thank you for engaging.

The OP isn’t engaging though. One opening post and then nada.

Not very polite and respectful imo.

I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

this is utterly disingenuous and straight from the tra handbook.
who is stopping you from existing? you do you- live however you want, dress, worship whatever- stop trying to get others (women esp) to upend their language because it suits you. you'll enjoy life a lot more when you stop trying to control how other people speak and think.

Hi OP.

I am GC in that I believe sex is sex and is immutable, that women are women, and transwomen are Transwomen and no less worthy of respect than anyone else.

I am respectful and relaxed about how people identify and live. I would abhor any prejudice or discrimination against anyone on grounds of the gender they inhabit or present.

My only beef is with those say I am transphobic because sport is based on physical categories snd it is simply not fair for someone who went through male puberty to compete against females. I do not think make bodied sex offenders should be in women’s prisons.

That doesn’t mean I think anything other than a tiny minority of Trans people are perverts and sex offenders. I know they are not. I have worked with many Trans people (very liberal / arty environment), and had great working relationships and a couple that became friends. One of my lesbian friends is married to a Transman.

As a feminist I have always thought it good that gender boundaries and norms were challenged. Gender divergence: great. As a woman I don’t want to have to stick to a set of gendered rules. I am female, a woman, but have never been ‘feminine’.

Anyway, good for you and your partner. I am glad you are happy.

[quote EarthSight]@RedToothBrush So far, yes, you're right, there's no engagement. This was posted today though and so we might not get that engagement until these posts have been read (and there's a lot of them so keep up with so far). This might be one of those dump posts where OP just wanted to megaphone over the room, but I'm curious to see if there will be any more posting from the OP.[/quote]
I very much doubt that even if there are posts, that it will engage.

To engage you have to address the issue of what a woman is and what a lesbian is. And more importantly, who decides that.

It clearly isn't biological women and thats where the whole thing falls down. Biological women are not permitted to define themselves or use science or reproduction to back this up. We must believe like Santa and we must not be critical because thats abusive (even when its neutral in tone and based on observational data or necessary when it comes to healthcare).

The very crux of the problem is that it is sexist from top to bottom - with the only time transmen are ever really considered is to serve the interests of males or as a great big 'gotchca' to women saying this is problematic.

Yet its not men who are being replaced with phrases like 'people with cervixes' or losing single sex toilet provision when things are made 'gender neutral' in the same way. Its not men who lose their dignity. Its not men who are prevented from social spaces because they are no longer compatible with religion in the same way. Its not men who lose out if gender is used instead of sex to measure paygaps and who gets senior roles. Its not men who lose out in sport.

Until you engage with the sexism that transgender beliefs double down on, its not engaging at all. Its gaslighting.

Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe

Ah, well, that's the thing. Changing language in this way, insisting on it, is not benign and inconsequential at all.

In short: GC does not mean anti-trans. Except in the toxic pit of Twitter etc. I don’t know a single GC person who is anti a Trans person living their life as you do.

I am GC and would refer to a man wanting to be called a woman as they. That way I'm not lying which is something I struggle with, but also not deliberately calling them a man.

@PickAChew

Well, if I’m talking to you, the correct pronoun would be you.

This. Which does rather scream 'baity baity click click'.