"What are your pronouns?" Best response for a 14 yo?

[RhymesWithOrange]

DD is as well informed as I can manage on pronoun nonsense but we're both stumped for the best response if a friend asks her "what are your pronouns?"

Any advice on challenging/deflecting? With close friends she jokes (she's identified as a Samsung refrigerator, pronouns ice/tray, for a while now) but with people she knows less well it's harder to pull off.

Thank you

So if a feminist objects to marriage as many feminists do then is it acceptable to refuse to call someone by anything but their maiden name, or refuse to refer to someone as Mrs or Miss when that's how they prefer to be addressed?

Other peoples marriages dont tend to erase womens rights and safeguards. Although there is a whole other discussion to be had on forced marriages and child marriages. But generally, there would be no reason to not acknowledge someones marriage. Theres plenty of reason not to buy into someone else gender ideology when it causes so much harm.

We all make accommodations for other people that may not perfectly align with our belief.

Gender ideology is miles apart from my beliefs because it causes harm to other people. Women. And children. I dont make accomodations for something where the values are no way aligned with mine.

We all tell little lies. It's simple politeness,
Its not a little lie. Its a huge lie which destroys the rights and safeguards of women and children. And i dont care about being kind or polite anymore. Being kind and polite has meant people like yourself take advantage. Its not advantageous to me to be kind and polite about this.

unless you want your kid to grow up to be the kind of obnoxious entitled brat who doesn't think they have to say please and thank you because they don't agree with it

My kids have very good manners. They wont accept people forcing their language in an ideology they dont believe in. And nor should they. The obnoxious brats would be the ones harassing them to give out pronouns even though its clearly not welcomed. That is disgustingly rude and controlling.

or would insist on keeping their shoes on if they had to go into a Mosque for some reason.

Nowhere near the same. Although you are close in the fact that gender ideology is very much a religion. Its not based on scientific fact.

My kids have very good manners. They wont accept people forcing their language in an ideology they dont believe in. And nor should they. The obnoxious brats would be the ones harassing them to give out pronouns even though its clearly not welcomed. That is disgustingly rude and controlling.

This.

And it seriously isn't going to be an issue when they grow up because this is a fad and it's already on the wane. Soon the only people doing pronouns will be the reluctantly badged staff of M and S and its sad mission to always be 10 years behind any given curve.

I just asked my 14yo.

She says she'd reply with: 'Aren't we leaving all that to year 8, now?'.

I was aware that all her mates were 'going by' different pronouns last year.

This year apparently it's considered rude to ask because: you might then assume you'd got the correct set for a particular person & then they change but you don't know that because you asked them last week so you use last week's pronouns which is now wrong so THEN where would you be, huh, you evil bigot.

She told me all this with a straight face, butter wouldn't melt, then smirked at me a bit, then corpsed completely, cackling.

Pronouns Are So Over in dd2 world.

Phew.

She says she'd reply with: 'Aren't we leaving all that to year 8, now?'

That's fucking genius! DD is going to love that.

We are looking after a hamster for someone and can't remember if it's male or female. We've had a good few 'misgendering the hamster' conversations this week that have been extremely reassuring (and very funny). In the end we've opted for they/them so as not to cause them any additional trauma

My kids have very good manners. They wont accept people forcing their language in an ideology they dont believe in. And nor should they. The obnoxious brats would be the ones harassing them to give out pronouns even though its clearly not welcomed. That is disgustingly rude and controlling.

How is it obnoxious to ask someone how they'd like to be referred as? They aren't asking you to accept their pronouns, they are just being polite. They might have to do it because of their work. How on earth is asking how would you like to be addressed 'disgustingly rude and controlling'?

Other peoples marriages dont tend to erase womens rights and safeguards. Although there is a whole other discussion to be had on forced marriages and child marriages. But generally, there would be no reason to not acknowledge someones marriage. Theres plenty of reason not to buy into someone else gender ideology when it causes so much harm.

Many feminists would strongly disagree with this. Many second wave feminists viewed marriage as legalised prostitution. Dworkin said "Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice." There are many feminist reasons not to recognise marriage but even the most ardent would probably be polite enough to refer to someone the way they would like to be referred to. It's just basic good manners.

@barleybadminton

My kids have very good manners. They wont accept people forcing their language in an ideology they dont believe in. And nor should they. The obnoxious brats would be the ones harassing them to give out pronouns even though its clearly not welcomed. That is disgustingly rude and controlling.

How is it obnoxious to ask someone how they'd like to be referred as? They aren't asking you to accept their pronouns, they are just being polite. They might have to do it because of their work. How on earth is asking how would you like to be addressed 'disgustingly rude and controlling'?

You are totally right. It's absolutely not a way to root out unbelievers and no-one has ever been told that they have to give their pronouns because blah blah inclusion. Not at work, not in training sessions, not on SM, not ever, no siree.

Disingenuous bollocks.

@CorvusPurpureus

I just asked my 14yo.

She says she'd reply with: 'Aren't we leaving all that to year 8, now?'.

I was aware that all her mates were 'going by' different pronouns last year.

This year apparently it's considered rude to ask because: you might then assume you'd got the correct set for a particular person & then they change but you don't know that because you asked them last week so you use last week's pronouns which is now wrong so THEN where would you be, huh, you evil bigot.

She told me all this with a straight face, butter wouldn't melt, then smirked at me a bit, then corpsed completely, cackling.

Pronouns Are So Over in dd2 world.

Phew.

This post contains about 13 pronouns, including 2 gender neutral ones. So I suspect they aren't going anywhere.

It's absolutely not a way to root out unbelievers

Paranoid much? Some people go by pronouns which do not necessarily reflect their physical sex or obvious appearance. It's becoming quite common. It's just a simple courtesy to ask how someonehow they like to be addressed.

Only one of them (those thems?) is gender neutral, Barley, the other is just plural.

& here's the thing: I didn't give which pronouns I was using a second's thought. I just automatically used female ones for my dd - since she's female - & a neutral plural-used-as-a-singular-proxy for a hypothetical peer of hers, who could be male or female.

Schrodinger's Pronoun, if you like. Not a coerced pronoun.

The kids have moved on.

There is a pedo dog fucker this week asking that people call him she/her/Claire.

I would suggest that if you think any of this is paranoid you are either not paying attention or you have your own agenda and women are collateral damage in that.

And I've noticed you've swivelled from, 'just answer the question politely' to, 'just politely ask other how they want to be addressed.' How about we all just rub the lotion on the skin otherwise we get the hose?

And I've noticed you've swivelled from, 'just answer the question politely' to, 'just politely ask other how they want to be addressed.'

No I haven't, I was just pointing out that that's all the questioner was doing. I'm not saying people should be under any obligation to ask this, just that if someone does I think it's pretty unpleasant to encourage your children to be rude or confrontational to them. They are just being polite.

How depressing that our 14 year olds are having to navigate this toxic mind fuck ‘right think’ ‘right speech’ - why aren’t all rational adults railing against this?

We've been teaching our children to be polite for generations. In truth there is probably far less gender based etiquette than there has ever been in this society. And what is viewed as polite changes over time.

Fuck me that absolute determination that some posters have to paint women refusing to call biological men women as the unreasonable ones is staggering

No I will not teach children that men or boys can be women or girls because of how they feel

Safeguarding 101 no sacred castes

Men however they present are not women

Fuck me that absolute determination that some posters have to paint women refusing to call biological men women as the unreasonable ones is staggering

Did the op say that someone had told her daughter they had to call a biological man a woman? I thought this was about someone being asked which pronoun they like to be addressed by.

@barleybadminton

Fuck me that absolute determination that some posters have to paint women refusing to call biological men women as the unreasonable ones is staggering

Did the op say that someone had told her daughter they had to call a biological man a woman? I thought this was about someone being asked which pronoun they like to be addressed by.

Since forever, ‘he’ is for a man (or boy) and ‘she’ is for a woman (or girl).

Hence indirectly, yes, using wrong sex pronouns is going along with the view that males can be women.

Some of us are so sick of this shit that using wrong sex pronouns is just not happening.

@Ionlydomassiveones

How depressing that our 14 year olds are having to navigate this toxic mind fuck ‘right think’ ‘right speech’ - why aren’t all rational adults railing against this? Why are some defending it? When did fucking ‘politeness’ and ‘not wanting to offend’ overtake reason? And where are all these 14 year olds who are so crippled and cut down by their peer’s impoliteness? Over sodding pronouns? Bonkers.

Indeed. During China's cultural revolution schools became centres of activism rather than learning with children being encouraged to expose each other, their teachers and their parents for wrongthink. There's a reason proponents of an ideology weaponise children and try to involve them in their battles. And we are seeing similar situations being played out now with young people.

I teach my children how to argue politely.

So there are ways to convey a different opinion that take the heat out - play the ball not the player, accept differing views courteously.

If no consensus can be reached, acknowledge this, & try to terminate the discussion on good terms or at least civil terms - leaving the door open for resumption at a later date is also good.

Learn to code switch - chatting casually to friends, v edgelording discussion online, v serious conversations with people you agree/disagree with, v careful professional conversations with consequences all require different strategies.

There are times when it's not productive to have an argument, & it's fine to shelve it.

If you're losing an argument - honestly, is that because the other party actually has a point, or is it because you haven't researched properly so you can't substantiate your perfectly reasonable position?

Politeness isn't ever to be confused with acquiescence, & no one should ever be taught or encouraged to lie.

Being able to research, conduct, win, lose or draw an argument with both confidence & grace is a vital life skill.

So I'm not massively sold on this whole hand wavey 'goodness why are kids being RUDE' when they're expected to kowtow to other people's pronoun piffle. I'd absolutely expect my own dc, & my gender critical students, to a) question the fuck out of it b) agree to disagree & back off politely if someone was upset c) form their own opinions.

I'd have said "I don't subscribe to the ideology which necessitates a response to that question." Although I prefer the pp's response: "sex-based, like my impression."

@CorvusPurpureus

I just asked my 14yo.

She says she'd reply with: 'Aren't we leaving all that to year 8, now?'.

I was aware that all her mates were 'going by' different pronouns last year.

This year apparently it's considered rude to ask because: you might then assume you'd got the correct set for a particular person & then they change but you don't know that because you asked them last week so you use last week's pronouns which is now wrong so THEN where would you be, huh, you evil bigot.

She told me all this with a straight face, butter wouldn't melt, then smirked at me a bit, then corpsed completely, cackling.

Pronouns Are So Over in dd2 world.

Phew.

Love this. And I think you are right @CorvusPurpureus, gender identity ideology is becoming passé for young people.

The kids have moved on.

If only this was true. I see no evidence of this in my area, sadly.

We've been teaching our children to be polite for generations. In truth there is probably far less gender based etiquette than there has ever been in this society. And what is viewed as polite changes over time.

You'll be waiting a long time if you think you're slipping gender pronouns in under the guise of being polite.

It's virtue signalling aggressive bollocks designed to weed out the non believers.

And we may have been teaching generations of children, particularly girls, to be kind and polite. Put their own feelings last. And you're right, what is viewed as being polite does change over time. After all women have been polite about many things they feel uncomfortable about for many years. This has changed. There is no need to be polite to chancers and manipulators.

The new generation of girls are learning something new. And that is to say No. They don't need to be polite and kind to those who have relied on those traits to seek advantage for themselves and destroy women's safeguards.

So on that note, Happy Christmas and a big fat NO to you. And heres to an extremely impolite new year.

"How is it obnoxious to ask someone how they'd like to be referred as? They aren't asking you to accept their pronouns, they are just being polite. They might have to do it because of their work. How on earth is asking how would you like to be addressed 'disgustingly rude and controlling"

I find it personal, invasive and rude question an annoying relative would ask at Christmas dinner that you can either completely ignore or directly challenge depending on the situation- somewhere between 'do you have a boyfriend yet?' and 'what's your relationship with God?'. It communicates a certain worldview that you feel should be universal and assumes the other person should share it and if they do not, you need to correct them.

@barleybadminton Marriage isn't a feminist issue. It isn't a patriachal issue. It is a LEGAL issue. It is about legal recognition and protection.

It's simple politeness, unless you want your kid to grow up to be the kind of obnoxious entitled brat

Wow. I think you are the one who sounds like an obnoxious entitled brat here. If someone tells you their name, you address them as their name. If someone says their name is Mary, you would address them as Mary. Nothing else is needed, is there. Pronouns are superfluous and unnecessary.