Oh dear. A split.

[Redlake]

Kellie Jay ranting against feminists.

CharlieParley I completely agree. Motherhood is important to women and children and should be important. Liberation of women shouldn't mean escaping motherhood but ensuring that those who choose that route are valued as much by society as those who take a different path.
I really like the fact that PP is prepared to speak about how important motherhood is.

[quote julieca]@Redlake you should know by now you cant say anything critical here about Kellie Jay. You are wasting your time.[/quote]
Really? I criticise Kellie Jay often enough. I criticise many people in this movement. That is another hilarious take.

julieca you seem quite keen to paint regulars as being a hive mind or something. In fact, this is not the first time you have tried to convey that MN FWR is an 'echo chamber' I think you said a while back.

Strange how the logic simply continues to defy your wishful thinking. So, not only does Kellie Jay Keen not agree with some people in the same movement. But here many of us are saying that we support her but acknowledge that we don't agree with every single thing she says.

And you are STILL trying to tell people we are in some kind of echo chamber.

That is more of a chamber pot of an argument there and I am sure most people who are regular readers would agree with my 'take' on your 'take.'

Being called right wing often has nothing to do with your actual political position, it is just used as a generic insult by many these days!

FFS.

More of the left wing / right wing accusations. That is something I am getting tired of seeing from anyone.

It is a divisive accusation from activists keen to cause fractures.

I see that the OP has no interest in discussing the merits of Kellie and Ruth's arguments. What a surprise?

It’s bizarre to expect all gender critical people to agree on everything else as well. I just don’t understand that logic at all. We’re a diverse bunch with different political leanings, of course there will be differences of opinion.

Because some posters like to be able to say that people pointing that out are all in an 'echo chamber' rather than acknowledge that their arguments are just plain old ill thought out and don't stand up to scrutiny unless people are being 'kind'. Because they don't have any foundation to their arguments except emotional manipulation (and condemnation in some instances).

Hence - the echo chamber / all feminists agree / you are all [insert whatever slur you have seen used by those with poor arguments].

Hence - threads like this expressing faux surprise that some of us disagree with other people.

When you are fully committed to believing in mantras, it is rather hypocritical to tell feminists they are in echo chambers.

But then again... those who are committed to those mantras are also good at projection, and shielding themselves from the truths discovered by critical thinking and independence.

Feminism as a whole seems to have an uneasy relationship with motherhood and domesticity.
I agree with this and felt it from my own position in the past wanting time to bring up kids.
Ive been trying to unpick the whole complex issue of childcare, feminism and its place within capitalism in a few pithy sentences but am struggling and think someone else might do it better! I think Posie is introducing the whole class issue and she has a point, though there are other things she has said in the past that Ive disagreed with.
As people say, we dont all think in unison like a lot of nodding dogs and thank god for that.

Here is rhw domestic lated zombies tweet, and in context - which doesn't make it any better.

It's not the first time Sarah Ditum has been sneery and gatekeepery either.

Still, we march onwards, sometimes rubbing shoulders with people we don't agree with or don't like.

Sorry about my crap typing at the moment! I need to cut my nails

Totally agree with you, CharlieParley

Nothing more domesticated than taking your husband's name, Ruth Serwotka.

Thanks Screaming.

See, I read that and I don't get the 'domesticated' to be a dig a women who have the need or the opportunity to make paid employment work around child rearing or do not choose to work in paid employment to raise their children.

I read that as someone being a 'zombie' because they seem to have not thought deeply about what they are saying. But are not going to kill anyone, and can be influenced or ordered to do and say things for the cause.

I agree though, these tweets are not aimed at bringing people who are new to the discussion into the discussion. They do seem rather 'gatekeepers'.

And I am basing this on two tweets and without wider context at all (making me a bit of a domesticated zombie).

I've not RTFT so it might have already been posted but I found this and particularly the replies to it to be very informative:

twitter.com/ruthserwotka/status/1471136318260404228

That post reads to me as sneery about SAHM. That may not be what Serwotka meant but she should have clarified. It's all a bit mean girls

Thanks for posting the link, Screaming .

I don't see the point of the original Tweet, what is SD trying to say? GC people have been lumped in with feminism, probably because of the TERF slur, so some may wrongly consider themselves to be so? Or that GC people think that this is the only feminist issue, and therefore name themselves as such without understanding whatever other issues feminists want people to understand and adhere to? Why not just say that instead of being PA about it? Gender critical does not equal feminism (although I don't think you can call yourself feminist without being GC), and that's a good thing. It's strength is that is is a broad church, because it is based on reality, not ideology. What stupid, divisive tweets, and what a way to alienate your donors!

Having read that Twitter thread, the exchange between Sarah Ditum and Ruth Serwotka does appear to be sneering at and disparaging certain women. That's not on and is a disservice to feminism.

I'm feeling the older I get the more I'm becoming aware that much of the liberal ideology, including feminism, is often not great for children.

Children thrive in secure family units. We absolutely know this.

But marriage rates dropping, divorce, blended step families etc, are seen as such a central rights for adults, we can't talk about the true impact on children.

And I get that we are so afraid of a past which enforced women to remain in unhappy abusive realtionships with no power, we almost enshrine these rights for women to choose whats best for them and have autonomy, but I think we're often doing it now at the expense of children.

Self sacrifice, by men and women, for children and family, is now very much out of fashion.

I saw on here earlier today someone suggest life was too short to stay in marriage if you don't get oral sex.

Sod the kids, hey, they'll be OK, eventually?

I realise this sounds like I'm an old reactionary man. But I'm not.
In RL I'm liberal high achieving women.

I'm just realising more and more.
It's not working for the kids,

Oh how tedious you are OP.
Ditto julieca.

It's purity spirals and intellectual tribalism and RightKindOfFeminist groupthink that allowed all this to proliferate.

It's women from all backgrounds and political allegiances coalescing to push back that has turned the tide, not ivory tower inhabitants gatekeeping while arguing how many RightKindOfFeminist angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Away with your divisive agenda.

@Rheia1983

Having read that Twitter thread, the exchange between Sarah Ditum and Ruth Serwotka does appear to be sneering at and disparaging certain women. That's not on and is a disservice to feminism.

Either way it is interpreted it is definitely sneering and disparaging. And none of us need any more of that in our lives.

I wonder who they thought it would play well with? Apart from each other?

It reveals a sneering disdain for most women: who are not like them.

It's the same type of disdain the labour party now has for the working class.

Still, on the positive side, at least we all agree we're adult human females.

Sarah Ditum is a mother. So strange to see her as someone who doesn't value motherhood.
And that video is simply a roll call of feminists that PP does not like along with lots of very personal insults about them.

I fully support Posie as she makes a lot of sense to me. I have reservations about WPUK although I admire their work a lot. This movement is a broad church but the key point is that sex matters.

I dont share some of Posies views but I do others. Why is that a problem OP
Do I have to be an unquestioning mindless follower?

Love the way OP confirms the trans movement (of who very few are trans ) has thought police and splits are squashed.

I wonder what happened to OP?