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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Oh dear. A split.

265 replies

Redlake · 17/12/2021 12:22

Kellie Jay ranting against feminists.

OP posts:
PronounssheRa · 17/12/2021 13:04

@BlueberryCheezecake

Hardly news that GCs are quite happy to defend and endorse despicable people provided they also hate the transes.
The Transes Wow, do you always use dehumanising language.
TheWeeDonkey · 17/12/2021 13:07

I have a lot of time for PP. I don't agree with everything she says but I like her straight talk and I like how she doesn't waiver from her beliefs and her priority is women and girls. I'm all for that.

julieca · 17/12/2021 13:07

@Redlake you should know by now you cant say anything critical here about Kellie Jay. You are wasting your time.

HouseOfGoldandBones · 17/12/2021 13:11

A split in what?
Women are not a hive mind!

allmywhat · 17/12/2021 13:12

It may surprise you, but most people are of independent mind,

Unclear if that’s true tbh, or the trans privilege movement would never have taken off. I think it might be more accurate to say that almost everyone is “of independent mind” to at least the same degree as OP.

dolorsit · 17/12/2021 13:16

[quote julieca]@Redlake you should know by now you cant say anything critical here about Kellie Jay. You are wasting your time.[/quote]
No, there are number of posters here who either dislike or disagree with PP. There's been a few spirited discussions on here in the past.

However, there is support for the idea that one can disagree on some things but agree and work together towards a common aim. This is what the word "ally" used to be.

Feminists have always disagreed on stuff and I for one have appreciated the different view points so that I can develop my own viewpoints rather than be spoon fed "one pure truth"

Rheia1983 · 17/12/2021 13:26

From my understanding of what was said in the video, Kellie-Jay Keen is calling out mean or snobbish behaviour by people who identify as feminists.

Fair point IMO. Looking down on other people because they may be of a certain class or do not have similar intellectual pursuits as you is crappy behaviour, whether or not you are a feminist.

Artichokeleaves · 17/12/2021 13:40

[quote julieca]@Redlake you should know by now you cant say anything critical here about Kellie Jay. You are wasting your time.[/quote]
You can say what you like within guidelines. Grin

What you can't do is require agreement. You give your opinion, others will give theirs, that's what a chat forum is. Other people not agreeing with you are not doing anything wrong. Again: you may like to look up 'splitting'. It was an interesting choice of word by the OP.

RepentBirthingPersonFucker · 17/12/2021 13:45

Because women are not a cult, unlike some other groups 🙄

scratchedbymycat · 17/12/2021 13:47

@RoyalCorgi

I don't think it's a great idea for people on our side of the argument to fall out publicly.

But being attacked for it by a TRA is a bit much. These are people whose name for post-operative transsexuals is "truscum".

Whoa! What? I've never heard this. What does 'truscum' even mean?
Floisme · 17/12/2021 13:47

Did Ruth Serwotka really use the phrase 'domesticated zombies'? Shock

And anyone who is shocked to hear that women disagree needs to go and educate themselves.

HesBoughtAFuckingHat · 17/12/2021 13:49

At least KJK doesn’t mock the very women that support her. I’m still reeling from Ruth’s comment, it’s so disheartening to see how women like myself are truly viewed by some academic feminists. I’ve donated a lot of money to WPUK over the years and certainly won’t again.

Floisme · 17/12/2021 13:50

Oh I've found that RS 'domesticated zombies' tweet. Not only did she say that but I see Sarah Ditum agreed with her. I hope there's a truckload of context that I've missed.

PronounssheRa · 17/12/2021 13:52

@Floisme

Did Ruth Serwotka really use the phrase 'domesticated zombies'? Shock

And anyone who is shocked to hear that women disagree needs to go and educate themselves.

She did and Sarah Ditum laughed along with it. I admire both these women but without further explanation it just makes them look snobby and elitist.
Mezmer · 17/12/2021 14:04

Feminism is kind of like socialism. Everyone has their own understanding of it and how it works. I don’t agree with the ideals held by a lot of socialists or feminists, but I believe in the ideals as a whole.

Scraggythang · 17/12/2021 14:19

I don’t agree with Posie on everything. But she’s very effective and clear. She certainly opened up the debate to a lot of us “domesticated zombies”.

This isn’t the first time an academic feminist has taken a shot at her. It won’t be the last.
🤷‍♀️

She’s no fool, she can look after herself.

MalagaNights · 17/12/2021 14:37

I think Kellie Jay is great.

A lot of the blue tick feminists are great too.

But I don't call myself a feminist anymore as I'm not able, and don't want to, meet the criteria or doctrine you must espouse to avoid the 'you're no feminist' accusation.

I'd rather just agree: no I'm not.
I think alot of it is wrong and damging to women.

But I do agree men can't be women.

TedImgoingmad · 17/12/2021 14:42

Does anyone have a link to the "domesticated zombies" tweet? Thank you in advance.

However, what they or anyone thinks of each other has nothing to do with the movement to keep male bodied individuals out of female spaces. We fight that fight for women we will never meet, never agree with, never understand, never have anything in common with and will never like. Because it's about protecting the sex based rights and safety of ALL women, because of the thing all women have in common - our sex. It's not a cult of personality. "Goodness", "rightness", "stunning and braveness", utilitarian value to society, academic achievement, workplace success, none of that matter one jot.

RoyalCorgi · 17/12/2021 14:46

Whoa! What? I've never heard this. What does 'truscum' even mean?

The idea is that people who have gender dysphoria and then undergo surgery fancy themselves as "true" trans, and look down on people who simply choose to identify as trans. Therefore the latter group think of the first group as "scum" for prancing about thinking themselves superior. I think that's the logic. There's an explanation here, though I'm not sure how accurate it is:

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=truscum

MalagaNights · 17/12/2021 14:49

It's not just that Kelly Jay isn't an academic feminist.

She's also evidently right wing.

So she's never going to agree with everything with socialist academic types.

But we can all agree men can't be women.
That's all.

RoyalCorgi · 17/12/2021 14:50

There's another, better explanation here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmedicalism

It's significant because I think the vast majority of people would imagine that all transgender people have gender dysphoria and either want to undergo, or have undergone, medical transition. They don't know that that only applies these days to a small number of people who describe themselves as trans.

TedImgoingmad · 17/12/2021 15:02

@MalagaNights

It's not just that Kelly Jay isn't an academic feminist.

She's also evidently right wing.

So she's never going to agree with everything with socialist academic types.

But we can all agree men can't be women.
That's all.

She was an active member of the Labour Party and her local Labour women's group until a couple of years ago. What makes her right wing?
grapewine · 17/12/2021 15:03

@titchy

I hate to break it to you OP, but women are not one hive mind. They are individual people with, careful now, their own opinions and everything

I know right.

On point.
MalagaNights · 17/12/2021 15:07

She was an active member of the Labour Party and her local Labour women's group until a couple of years ago. What makes her right wing?

Was she?
I didn't know that.

I just had the impression from those critical of her that she takes a more right leaning position on some issues.

I was always on the left, and now get 'accused' of being right. It's happened to lots of us who don't actually feel we've moved.

CharlieParley · 17/12/2021 15:25

Feminism as a whole seems to have an uneasy relationship with motherhood and domesticity. It doesn't matter whether you look at radical feminism or liberal feminism or whichever branch of feminism you care to examine. In my view it's a major shortcoming and failure, because 80% of us give birth, and a large majority of mothers take time out to be SAHMs for at least the first important months of their children's lives. And the overwhelming majority are dealing with the bulk of domestic work.

Liberation, again no matter which version, seems to be viewed only through one lens, that of freeing us from domestic work and being SAHMs. A shortsighted aim that would result in harm for many children (in case they're unaware, that's been done before. Including in the communist country I grew up in. I was one of those children. It was absolutely undeniably unequivocally harmful to the children who suffered through it.)

But even today feminists devalue women's domestic work and Ruth and Sarah are not the only and certainly not the first feminists to look down on SAHMs as domesticated zombies.

I've come to the conclusion that true liberation necessitates that we resolve this conflict because it doesn't just arrise from patriarchal oppression. There's the simple fact that it benefits the child to have its mother provide this vital care in the first stage of its psycho-social development.

(Ignoring for the sake of argument here that there's a small percentage of mothers whose children would benefit more from being almost in anyone else's care than theirs.)

But in thinking of us like that, Ruth and Sarah do nothing more than follow their programming (or female socialisation if you will). It's a very patriarchal opinion to hold and it serves a specific purpose in driving a wedge between feminists and ordinary women.