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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Oh dear. A split.

265 replies

Redlake · 17/12/2021 12:22

Kellie Jay ranting against feminists.

OP posts:
Floisme · 17/12/2021 17:37

Feminism as a whole seems to have an uneasy relationship with motherhood and domesticity. It doesn't matter whether you look at radical feminism or liberal feminism or whichever branch of feminism you care to examine. In my view it's a major shortcoming and failure,
I agree with this and the rest of CharlieParley's post. I don't think feminism has ever got to grips with it, which is kind of bizarre given that we're the sex that gives birth.

allmywhat · 17/12/2021 17:43

The people yesterday assuming that we don’t think safeguarding rules should be applied to famous feminists…

The people today thinking women not agreeing with each other means there’s a “split.”

It’s interesting to see how badly TRAs get it wrong when they project their intolerance and tribalism onto their opponents.

And it’s so interesting how blind they are to themselves on account of having self-identified as tolerant and as “independent thinkers.” Grin

nauticant · 17/12/2021 17:46

It seems the wheels started to fall off the bus earlier this week with Ruth Serwotka talking about "supporting a journey to womanhood for those born male":

twitter.com/ruthserwotka/status/1470714307210006528

ISaySteadyOn · 17/12/2021 17:46

@Floisme

Feminism as a whole seems to have an uneasy relationship with motherhood and domesticity. It doesn't matter whether you look at radical feminism or liberal feminism or whichever branch of feminism you care to examine. In my view it's a major shortcoming and failure, I agree with this and the rest of CharlieParley's post. I don't think feminism has ever got to grips with it, which is kind of bizarre given that we're the sex that gives birth.
This uneasy relationship also jars with the fact that many women have said they only really discovered the need for feminism when they became mothers.

As to the OP, I don't believe Posie ever claimed to be feminist and I remember when she posted on these boards.

allmywhat · 17/12/2021 17:50

Self sacrifice, by men and women, for children and family, is now very much out of fashion.

It may be out of fashion and sneered at, but it is still very much expected, from women. Not so much from men.

Didn’t like your post much because it seemed to be reinforcing that. I’m pretty sure what is needed is for women to self-sacrifice less and for men to step up to the plate.

I think there’s probably a link between the unreasonable expectations on mothers to sacrifice themselves and the horrible generation we’re seeing of fully grown adults with the minds and egos of small children, seething with horrific rage against women and mothers.

ScreamingMeMe · 17/12/2021 17:52

[quote nauticant]It seems the wheels started to fall off the bus earlier this week with Ruth Serwotka talking about "supporting a journey to womanhood for those born male":

twitter.com/ruthserwotka/status/1470714307210006528[/quote]
#NoThankYou

Mezmer · 17/12/2021 17:59

Doesn’t a conservative feminist believes women should have the freedom to shape one’s destiny through equality of opportunity; whereas a left wing feminist believes society should play an active role in elevating women as a way of making up for patriarchal disadvantage?

Then there’s the common ground; men can’t be women for instance.

Everything else (I.e who makes a ‘good feminist’ and who is a role model etc) is just individual opinion.

TheWeeDonkey · 17/12/2021 18:18

[quote nauticant]It seems the wheels started to fall off the bus earlier this week with Ruth Serwotka talking about "supporting a journey to womanhood for those born male":

twitter.com/ruthserwotka/status/1470714307210006528[/quote]
See, when I read stuff like this I do respect the more straight forward approach of the likes of Posie and Karen Davis. They just remind me of my dear old nan "draw your line and never give an inch"

Clymene · 17/12/2021 18:19

[quote nauticant]It seems the wheels started to fall off the bus earlier this week with Ruth Serwotka talking about "supporting a journey to womanhood for those born male":

twitter.com/ruthserwotka/status/1470714307210006528[/quote]
Oh that's what this is about. She got called out on that nonsense and then accused any women who took issue of being 'one of PP's flying monkeys' slightly bizarrely.

I think A Woman's Place have done some really good things. But they have also centred men's voices. It seems to me that the
left establishment find it very difficult to prioritise women over men

TheWeeDonkey · 17/12/2021 18:21

I also agree with CharleyParleys great post. Motherhood is the great leveller. What is feminism if it isn't supporting women to make the best of your options?

Theunamedcat · 17/12/2021 18:24

We don't agree on everything

Omicrone · 17/12/2021 18:26

In any movement there are always 'splits'. There are always different people who believe in different ways of achieving the common goal. They will criticise each other for making 'alliances' with people who others think it's not appropriate to make alliances with, they will disagree on the best tactics to achieve a goal, they will split and rebel.

Why would anyone think this was any different? It's not a 'gotcha' in any way.

I am not really bothered by the 'oh my god, you agree with so and so on this particular point so you must be wrong' crap. The other day some bloke who apparently is involved in a pro paedo organisation wrote an article for the Independent slagging off JK Rowling. So what, does that mean everyone who disagrees with JKR is pro paedophile? No, of course not. But that is the kind of narrative that is thrown at us. It's bullshit.

HepzibahGreen · 17/12/2021 18:28

Children thrive in secure family units. We absolutely know this. Of course they do, but a family unit doesn't have to be a Mum and Dad.

It has long been a problem for Feminism, the fact that most of us become mothers, with all the physical, hormonal and social elements of that, but at the same time we are trying to be mothers in a system that doesn't really support us.
It's not Feminism that fucks us over when we become mums it's all the other stuff that happens, although some of the policies that have been brought in that you could view as feminist have backfired, I think, for example extended maternity leave. In theory it's lovely that women can (if they have good enough working conditions) take a whole year off work, but when they get back to work they can find themselves shoved to one side, or not in the same role. At the same time, the husband has got used to wife being at home and doing all the domestic chores, as well as all the childcare, and that doesn't help with the "second shift" women end up doing when they get in from work.
What would really help mothers would be fathers being expected to pull their weight with all that, and absent fathers being legally made to pay child support.
There also needs to be a realisation on the part of young men that when they father a child it is as much their financial responsibility as the woman's, and that is sorely lacking ime. Choosing to be a SAHM beyond mat leave does depend on there being a partner able and willing to support the family financially, and that's pretty unusual in my world, where most women have to work as well as men. If they can't because they have been abandoned by the father, they are stuck in a poverty trap of benefits, because child support is treated as optional for men.
I suppose what I am trying to say is that I agree, some feminists have either dismissed the specific biological needs of mothers and their babies, but I have also read lots of posts on here that idolise the idea of motherhood and the choice to take time out from the workplace, without really realising how difficult that would be for most women in the current system.
Motherhood is amazing-when I was pregnant I remember thinking "fuck me, why are women not treated like Goddesses-look what we put our bodies through!" but at the same time I don't want to be back in a world where it's the only thing we do. The women in my family have always worked, always and forever, going back as far as I know, so there has to be a way to honour mothers and the unique bond we have with our kids, but also a system to support us properly when we need to get back out there, and right now that's lacking.
I respect PP, I think she talks a lot of sense, but I don't like the personal spats and social media rows, it just seems childish.
I do agree with her about academic feminists though, in that they seem to live in a theoretical world, and it's far removed from most women's lives.

MalagaNights · 17/12/2021 18:33

allmywhat I think it's worse than that, it's expected of women to earn AND do domestic duties including the children.
And I think this most damages low earning women AND their children.

I did say men and women in my post btw.
But I'm not surprised you didn't like it, I didn't expect many on these boards would have. I wouldn't have 5 years ago.

I disagree the answer is: men need to change. That's only partly true.

We need a change where we can create steady fair partnerships between the sexes, where roles are balanced so no one is disadvantaged, and where all opportunities are open to both sexes.

This doesn't seem to be what feminism has given women.

And my point is I think children are suffering.

We need a movement which puts children first. And which forces men and women how to work out together, fairly, how to do that.

MalagaNights · 17/12/2021 18:45

A family unit doesn't have to be a mum and a dad.

Children do best when raised by their biological parents (on average statistically etc). Having a step parent in the home is a significant risk factor in many ways.

And biological parents require a man and a women...cos you know sex matters.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/12/2021 19:06

What an interesting thread this has turned out to be - despite the OP's original hopes. Feminism has always had divisions and differences. The glaring divide between the fairy dust journey that some argue men can make towards their version of womanhood versus so many women's insistence that the sex class of women must never include the oppressor group of men is stark. Navigating this is going to be a challenge.

SolasAnla · 17/12/2021 19:15

[quote Redlake]Kellie Jay ranting against feminists.

[/quote] Thanks👍don't watch PP unless she is posted up Guess she is good at PR
BoredOfSamphire · 17/12/2021 19:35

supporting a journey to womanhood for those born male

That's a misleading quote. In simple clear language, RS's tweet meant "rapists with GRCs shouldn't be in female prisons".

toomanytrees · 17/12/2021 19:41

I agree with the many great posts above pointing out feminism's blind spots. One can support women's rights without being a feminist. Not only is feminism uneasy about motherhood, it also seems uninterested in women's traditional roles, contributions and ways of being. Feminists seem to value the male world more than the female world. Everything women did is trivial but everything men did is important. I think there is much to be learned from how our foremothers successfully lived their lives.

LittleEsme · 17/12/2021 19:44

"Ranting"

What's next OP?
Frothing?

Clymene · 17/12/2021 20:10

@BoredOfSamphire

supporting a journey to womanhood for those born male

That's a misleading quote. In simple clear language, RS's tweet meant "rapists with GRCs shouldn't be in female prisons".

Well yes, but let's not pretend there's not a fundamental disconnect between women who believe men can become women unless they're connected of a sex crime against women (Ruth's position) and those of us who believe that humans can't change sex (maya's position).

It's not hateful to tell the truth.

Oh dear. A split.
Clymene · 17/12/2021 20:11

They're connected =they're convicted

allmywhat · 17/12/2021 20:53

Children do best when raised by their biological parents (on average statistically etc). Having a step parent in the home is a significant risk factor in many ways.

Children do fine, actually better than average, when raised by lesbian parents.

Stepfathers/unrelated males are a risk, and single parenthood is unsurprisingly harder than when two adults are contributing.

You might be half right in that it’s bad for children not to be raised by their biological mother. That would be consistent with the evidence. I guess we will know for sure once the great surrogacy experiment has produced some results.

Delphinium20 · 17/12/2021 20:59

I get confused when women say they are for women's rights but they aren't feminists. I can't separate the two as I've no idea the criteria of each camp. I don't expect any woman who calls herself one or the other or both to agree on all policies and issues, but to me women's rights and feminism are synonyms.

As to Posie, sometimes I love what she says and how she says it. Sometimes I don't. I have no problem criticizing some of her ideas (as an American, I completely disagree with her on loads of issues regarding our politics but I also think she's out of her depth there), but I don't think that's the same thing as criticizing her personally. On a personal level, I'd probably love hanging out with her.

Delphinium20 · 17/12/2021 21:09

Children do fine, actually better than average, when raised by lesbian parents

Stepfathers/unrelated males are a risk, and single parenthood is unsurprisingly harder than when two adults are contributing

I think the evidence proves both your points. Lesbians are no different than any mother who is raising her children without their bio father - it depends on how children feel and how they are connected to their bio dad. Some resent having him gone, some are ambivalent and some are grateful he's not in the picture. From the donor conceived websites, it's clear children do care to have knowledge and insight on their bio parents. We can't pretend children don't need this knowledge and/or connection. It's true for adopted children as well. Everyone deserves to know where they came from.

Personally, if my DH died or left me, I'd never date or remarry while my DDs still lived with me. Too dangerous for them to have an unrelated man around.