Oh dear. A split.

[Redlake]

Kellie Jay ranting against feminists.

"SPLITTERS!"

Honestly, The Life Of Brian covered it all.

For my part, women who act like unelected leaders can fuck off. The arrogance of these two women, talking about 'domesticated zombies', while writing articles about men on a jouney to womanhood and men writing as part their agp novel writing. MEN. Not women

And yet you speak this way about women?
Read the fucking room.

It's not just unrelated males who pose a danger to children in households.
Unrelated females do too.

Sadly recent news events, stats, & archetypes & tell us this.

And the biggest resiliency factor in not knowing your bio father? Being within a community of kids who do know their bio fathers.
Lots of lesbian couples probably provide this as a resiliency factor.
Lots of poor single mothers probably don't.

We know what works for kids.
We just don't want to talk about it.

Sex matters.

What has saying poor single mothers don’t mix with “ proper” families have to do with sex mattering exactly??
The endlessly demonised poor single mothers are generally poor because the fathers fucked of and don’t pay up. That’s not a moral failing by the mothers, it’s a society willing to allow men to take no responsibility.
Sex matters in that women ( yes even poor single mothers) consistently pick up the slack, put food on the table and work to make families where a lot of men just don’t. Take your sneering and preconceptions somewhere else.

"Two women disagree with each other" shock.

But maybe it really is a shock to transactivists. Women can disagree and even quarrel without either of them threatening violence or trying to get the other one fired.

Yes, there is a differnce in opinion.

No. Shit. Sherlock.

Which one did you think was our 'Leader'?

Sorry to disappoint. Some of these women might act like Head Girls, but we are not in school anymore and we can tell them to fuck off.

Seriously. Fuck off.

I'm acutely aware of that uneasy relationship with "homemakers". I have 2 teen boys with SN so I've ended up dropping a career that I was admittedly struggling with to be there full time for them. Spent a lot of that time picking up the pieces of other people fucking up with them. It's put me in a financially vulnerable position but needs must.

@MalagaNights

It's not just unrelated males who pose a danger to children in households. Unrelated females do too.

Sadly recent news events, stats, & archetypes & tell us this.

And the biggest resiliency factor in not knowing your bio father? Being within a community of kids who do know their bio fathers.
Lots of lesbian couples probably provide this as a resiliency factor.
Lots of poor single mothers probably don't.

We know what works for kids.
We just don't want to talk about it.

Sex matters.

It is mostly unrelated males, though. Even those stories of a woman killing herself and her children, there is all too often a father not being a father.

It's really bloody weird these days that some people genuinely think you can't disagree with someone else and still remain calm and unruffled and even still rate and like them.

It's also worth noting that just about everybody disagrees with transactivism, before they even fully know what's going on.

And only more so, when they are informed. When you get 90% of the population understanding that sex matters, you're obviously going to get wildly different opinions, politics, attitudes in just about everything else.

And whether you disagree with Ruth Serwotka in this case (I do), or not, despite the way she sometimes goes about it, she is pro women. And so is Sarah Ditum.

And this thread is very interesting, too, due to the conversation about motherhood. Someone has to look after the children. And it should never be to their detriment. It's very interesting to hear different solutions.

It's definitely not a split. More a slight flare-up of an ongoing issue.

I've never had the sense from Posie that she minds people disagreeing with her or that she's not capable of changing her views on issues. I agree with her on many things, not all, and I recognise what a brilliant campaigner she is.

I really object to that "domesticated zombies" line and Sarah Ditum liking it. Maybe she didn't intend for it to sound contemptuous of mothers but that's the way it read to many women. It's true, as PP said, that she's been attacked by feminists for the way she looks, her parenting, her intelligence. It's not acceptable.

Regardless, both of them do a great deal to campaign for women's rights and that's where the focus should be. Leave the purity spirals for others.

HephzibahGreen: and that's why we can't talk about it.

You accuse me of sneering or blaming single mothers. I did neither. You put words in quotes I never used.

I just talked about the data that we know, about what works for children. Which is having involved mothers and fathers.

And you're right single motherhood doesn't work for women either.

I'm not blaming women. I'm pointing out a problem which I don't think feminism has provided women an answer for.

But when even saying it doesn't work well is seen as an attack, we can't talk about it.

'women who believe men can become women unless they're connected of a sex crime'

Where did Ruth Serwotka say she believed that?

That tweet says she believes, as a minimum, that any social recognition of 'womanhood' should be barred to rapists. Not that she personally believes men can turn into women.

She might think they can, but that tweet doesn't say so.

I hate bloody Twitter. Too brief, too easily overinterpreted.

I think Malaga makes some good points. It is an issue that feminism is not comfortable with. Perhaps the problem is that feminism centres women only but in a family women are one piece of a puzzle. What is good for a woman is not necessarily good for a family and for a child.

Feminism seems to have been keen to give women the same role as men without taking into account that this leaves either a woman doing two jobs(home and work) or the children left with less emotional care. I think feminism hoped that men would step into the gap and share but apart from some lovely exceptions it hasn't really worked like that.

Both parents do need to put children first and sometimes that will conflict with their own wants. Of course we should sacrifice our wants for our children's needs. Making a family is a fine balancing act which neither history or the modern world has got right.

We need more discussion about area of women's lives.

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

"Two women disagree with each other" shock.

But maybe it really is a shock to transactivists. Women can disagree and even quarrel without either of them threatening violence or trying to get the other one fired.

This!!!

It's alien to them.

I am of independent mind and not easily persuaded by anyone telling me what I should think.

Rather a lot like PP. Sometimes people who reflect something about ourselves back to us piss us off.

I took Malaga's post as asking what society would look like if it was built entirely around what's best for children. I don't know the answer, and what's more I've an uncomfortable feeling I might not entirely like the answer, but, if that's what she was asking then I think it's a valid question.

It really is high time feminism thrashed some of this stuff out. It's been festering for decades and the longer it's left, the bigger the row's going to be.

What is best for children also includes happy well supported parents so we shouldn't think that the shift would be to only support the child.

Both women and children suffer from not having this conversation.

What is good for a woman is not necessarily good for a family and for a child.

I think what feminism has missed is that for most women, who are mothers, what is good for family and children is also good for women.

What we needed was this constructed in a fairer way, which protects women, and doesn't limit their choices and opportunities.

I think so far feminism has given us the opportunities but not addressed the remaining question of family roles and how this works for women. Because at the moment it's not working and women and children are suffering.

I didn't comment on the original Twitter thing but was 😮 at the blatant snobbery from the blue tick guardians of 'feminism' (but only for about 2 minutes as that kind of sneering is sadly not a novel event 🤷🏻‍♀️)

I don't consider myself a 'feminist' by conscious choice and haven't for many years, as the constant purity tests applied by the 'intellectual' or 'educated' and the 'feminism is inherently left wing' guardians of feminism are anathema to me.

I honestly couldn't give a crap what political stance (or none) a woman aligns with, and neither how educated or how well-read on 'feminist theories' she is. Similarly, I care not a jot about the working/parenting decisions a woman makes: whether she has children or not, is a stay-at-home mum, a working mum, works away a lot or never leaves her kids for anything.

But when I see blue ticks such as the two who sparked off PP making the sorts of comments that they did, it irks me.
Why? Because their smug righteousness & superiority complex when looking down on mothers is fucking laughable.

They sit in their judgement about how much more enlightened they are compared with the 'domesticated zombies' and burnish their right-on 'feminist' credentials whilst sneering at those they think are beneath them.

The average working class woman who never went to university, had kids, got married, keeps working after having kids (because that's what you have to do, and that's what your mum, granny, her mum etc did as well) is not lesser to the gatekeepers of 'feminism'.

....Have just read my post back when deciding whether to post it or not, and can see how rambling it is 😳😂
Oh well 🤷🏻‍♀️

Unrelated females do [pose a risk] too.Sadly recent news events, stats, & archetypes & tell us this.

Stats don’t. News stories aren’t data, no matter how shocking. Archetypes created by a misogynist society aren’t information of any kind. Unrelated females pose less of a risk than related males.

Malaga I agree. What I meant by "What is good for a woman is not necessarily good for a family and for a child" is when a women follows only her interests and wishes without regard for the family. She may be happy with her all consuming workaholic lifestyle high flying career but the children will suffer. I do think that men who take this approach also damage the family and really feel for the children when both parents take this path.

This has become a very interesting thread. Thanks OP for instigating it! 🙂

Unrelated females do pose a risk.

Not the same risk of sexual or physical abuse maybe, but the risks of being a step child in a family are multiple with poor outcomes for social emotional and mental health.

This is easily seen on the threads on here with women who can't cope with or resent step children, particularly when they have their own child.

It's obvious that step children pose a problem for new adult relationships and to new children within a new relationship. They take resources away. Time and money.
This naturally creates resentment, which might manifest differently in men and women, but either way isn't good for kids.

And who brings these risky unrelated men into the home? Mothers.

I've just read a thread by a mother asking how she can stop her DD talking about her dad in front of her new partner.

It's not working. For children or women. The evidence is all over these boards and in the stats.

My observation is that many blue tick feminists are very very upset with Posie because she says in 4 words what took them years of academia to point out, and in one PR campaign she got to the root of the issue and made 'the other side's' argument completely nonsensical and showed the absurdity of the whole thing.

If you've been a feminist for 20 years banging on about it and someone walks into the bar and gets all the attention [and makes your point] in 2 minutes, you're gonna be really pissed off about it.

ErMaGAWD someone inform the chief Big Feminist! Women are disagreeing with each other! Argh! Halp! Halp! I'm meeeeeeeeeeeeeelting .....

Sorry, I haven't RTFT. I just think it's quite funny that there's an idea of a 'split' when women have been disagreeing on just about bloody everything many issues and facets of the discussion for many years.