Transwomen in womens sport: advice sought..

[TraumatisedinTwickenham]

I’ve name changed as this may be outing.

As a hobby I play a team sport. I play for a womens team in a womens league.
We played against a team recently which had two trans women in the tram. Both well over 6 ft and faster, stronger than the women on my team.

They were both in the ladies changing room before the game. I wasn’t changing as I had arrived already in my sports gear but there are open showers in there and I certainty wouldn’t have felt comfortable showering in knowing that there was a trans woman in the space.

I’m really quite traumatised about it. I thought a womens league was inherently a single sex league but this doesn’t seem to be the case here. I have thought about going to the governing body of the sport but noticed that their website has an interview with the club for which the team we played represents as part of LGBTQ+ history month.

Incidentally, both of the trans people were very pleasant friendly people, not that this is really relevant, why wouldn’t they be. But it doesn’t change the fact that anyone who has been through male puberty has an undeniable advantage over women. I just don’t think that they should be participating in a womens team in a womens league but don’t know what the actual legal position is.

I was really upset (unexpectedly so) during the game and now half my own team thinks I’m a bigot..

I just don’t know what to do.

Maybe an entire team of men as long as everyone in the team was happy of course!

The idea that the majority of women involved in the teams are really GC but are scared of being bullied by a vocal pro-trans minority is just a bit silly, and completely without evidence. It's the classic presumption that, because my friends and I think x, then so does the rest of the world. The general drift towards tolerance and acceptance of trans people should underline that this really ain't the case here.

Tolerance and acceptance of trans people doesn't mean that you have to pretend that there are no differences between a male who identifies as a woman and a woman when it comes to sport. Transwomen have male bodies and all the sporting advantage that gives them.

Maybe they could carry the puck? They're not sticking to womens league rules so why not?

Or the visiting team always has to have a much smaller goal? I mean you ignore one set of rules, why not ignore some of the others!

@titchy

Maybe they should also unilaterally decide to have 15 on the team - after all I'm sure the majority would be fine!

Yep, can't see the problem with that, provided the clubs in the league democratically agree.

The idea that the majority of women involved in the teams are really GC but are scared of being bullied by a vocal pro-trans minority is just a bit silly, and completely without evidence. It's the classic presumption that, because my friends and I think x, then so does the rest of the world. The general drift towards tolerance and acceptance of trans people should underline that this really ain't the case here.

I suspect they have not thought about it and will not until they have played a couple of games and experienced the strength/speed disparity (as the OP experienced) or have been in a collision or other accident.

At this point it will already be the status quo, so they will simply withdraw from the sport

@titchy

Or the visiting team always has to have a much smaller goal? I mean you ignore one set of rules, why not ignore some of the others!

A bit like the rule suggestion that the visiting team in cricket should automatically win the toss, an idea that's been bouncing round for years.

A smaller goal for the visiting team would help reduce home advantage, so I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

The idea that the majority of women involved in the teams are really GC but are scared of being bullied by a vocal pro-trans minority is just a bit silly, and completely without evidence. It's the classic presumption that, because my friends and I think x, then so does the rest of the world. The general drift towards tolerance and acceptance of trans people should underline that this really ain't the case here.

I suspect they have not thought about it and will not until they have played a couple of games and experienced the strength/speed disparity (as the OP experienced) or have been in a collision or other accident.

At this point it will already be the status quo, so they will simply withdraw from the sport

Most people who have played hockey at any level will have experienced mixed hockey, so this sounds really unlikely.

@titchy

Maybe they could carry the puck? They're not sticking to womens league rules so why not?

Titchy, for the avoidance of doubt, I think we're talking about field hockey here rather than ice hockey. I've not played ice hockey but have seen it, and I think a mixed version of the game would be a very bad idea - see also mixed rugby or mixed karate.

Women haven’t been asked about this. Ever.

It’s been sneaked in and then we’ve been TOLD that we’re fine with it.

Given that transwomen are, I assume, eligible to play either with their own sex or in a mixed sex league then it seems a bit of a stretch to claim this is about inclusion. If what it's really about is validation then can we at least be clear about it and let's hear the arguments.

Titchy, for the avoidance of doubt, I think we're talking about field hockey here rather than ice hockey.

I know. Womens field hockey playing womens field hockey rules in a womens field hockey league, when the inclusion of men means they should be playing mixed field hockey rules in a mixed filed hockey league. Cheating!

Yep, can't see the problem with that, provided the clubs in the league democratically agree.

So you don't think a slow "slide" into teams just turning up with 15 players would be acceptable?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Yep, can't see the problem with that, provided the clubs in the league democratically agree.

So you don't think a slow "slide" into teams just turning up with 15 players would be acceptable?

Exactly! The entire league hasn't even been asked!

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

The idea that the majority of women involved in the teams are really GC but are scared of being bullied by a vocal pro-trans minority is just a bit silly, and completely without evidence. It's the classic presumption that, because my friends and I think x, then so does the rest of the world. The general drift towards tolerance and acceptance of trans people should underline that this really ain't the case here.

I suspect they have not thought about it and will not until they have played a couple of games and experienced the strength/speed disparity (as the OP experienced) or have been in a collision or other accident.

At this point it will already be the status quo, so they will simply withdraw from the sport

Quite! Hockey has been completely stonewalled.

Honestly the idea that women should beeee kiiinnnd and just accept men coming into their sport because otherwise men will feel excluded is so endlessly fucking insulting

How about Male hockey teams beeeee kiiiiind and inclusive and tolerant and accept TW playing for them?

How about TW beeeee liiiiind and think about something about their own validation and feelings?

Why is it always always always up to women to make room??

No fucking thank you

@titchy

Titchy, for the avoidance of doubt, I think we're talking about field hockey here rather than ice hockey.

I know. Womens field hockey playing womens field hockey rules in a womens field hockey league, when the inclusion of men means they should be playing mixed field hockey rules in a mixed filed hockey league. Cheating!

I think the repeated use of the word 'cheats' and 'cheating' is pretty nasty tbh. You may not agree with the rules that allow them to play, but they are what they are at the moment. Even the OP has said that the two TWs involved were perfectly pleasant.

Calling TWs engaging in an activity in accordance with that activity's rules 'cheats' simply because they are trans is bordering on the transphobic. To use a sporting metaphor, you should play the ball, not the man (and I use the word 'man' advisedly here).

As Artichoke points out, this is the second poster who has said today that women should remove themselves from existing and established women's teams to set up their own 'natal only, or 'gc' or 'female' services and provisions. Is this the bizarre new TRA approach?

The current services and provisions are for women. If people want to set up 'inclusive' services which are mixed sex and the participants are clear about this when they join, then fine, go for it. The women participating will have joined being aware of the risks of mixed sex sport (in this case in particular).

Making such existing services mixed sex and then insisting that the women then forced out of provision which was originally single sex set up another version of the original provision is just colonisation and exclusion. It's ridiculous.

But it’s not in accordance with FIH rules as has been repeatedly pointed out

Mixed hockey is a very clearly defined form of hockey with clearly defined rules

So yes cheating is going on

Most people who have played hockey at any level will have experienced mixed hockey, so this sounds really unlikely.

Ah! Is that why no-one dared to run a secret ballot of all current players? Because they might say no?

@Waitwhat23

As Artichoke points out, this is the second poster who has said today that women should remove themselves from existing and established women's teams to set up their own 'natal only, or 'gc' or 'female' services and provisions. Is this the bizarre new TRA approach?

The current services and provisions are for women. If people want to set up 'inclusive' services which are mixed sex and the participants are clear about this when they join, then fine, go for it. The women participating will have joined being aware of the risks of mixed sex sport (in this case in particular).

Making such existing services mixed sex and then insisting that the women then forced out of provision which was originally single sex set up another version of the original provision is just colonisation and exclusion. It's ridiculous.

I believe this image shows the process

My DD plays in a women's team and is 13. I would need to withdraw her from any game that had transwomen in. Plus I wouldn't let her in the changing rooms. Luckily she's not in the first team which is where transwomen would no doubt be so hopefully won't be in this position.

I wish there was some tolerance and acceptance on the part of TW towards females.

Just out of interest how many females would need to be 'upset' before it mattered?

How is anyone going to count the females who just quietly have to leave and give up sport as being for them?

Sport will be for males, and the female people able to be male centric. It will not be inclusive of all females. Tolerance and acceptance of females and their specific needs, differences, barriers, equal humanity, all sadly lacking there.

I think the repeated use of the word 'cheats' and 'cheating' is pretty nasty tbh. You may not agree with the rules that allow them to play, but they are what they are at the moment. Even the OP has said that the two TWs involved were perfectly pleasant.

The rules don't allow that though that's the bloody point. They should be playing the mixed sex rules, but they're not.

I think the repeated use of the word 'cheats' and 'cheating' is pretty nasty tbh. You may not agree with the rules that allow them to play, but they are what they are at the moment. Even the OP has said that the two TWs involved were perfectly pleasant.

Do you honestly think that those two players don't know that their male bodies give them an advantage when playing?