Transwomen in womens sport: advice sought..

[TraumatisedinTwickenham]

I’ve name changed as this may be outing.

As a hobby I play a team sport. I play for a womens team in a womens league.
We played against a team recently which had two trans women in the tram. Both well over 6 ft and faster, stronger than the women on my team.

They were both in the ladies changing room before the game. I wasn’t changing as I had arrived already in my sports gear but there are open showers in there and I certainty wouldn’t have felt comfortable showering in knowing that there was a trans woman in the space.

I’m really quite traumatised about it. I thought a womens league was inherently a single sex league but this doesn’t seem to be the case here. I have thought about going to the governing body of the sport but noticed that their website has an interview with the club for which the team we played represents as part of LGBTQ+ history month.

Incidentally, both of the trans people were very pleasant friendly people, not that this is really relevant, why wouldn’t they be. But it doesn’t change the fact that anyone who has been through male puberty has an undeniable advantage over women. I just don’t think that they should be participating in a womens team in a womens league but don’t know what the actual legal position is.

I was really upset (unexpectedly so) during the game and now half my own team thinks I’m a bigot..

I just don’t know what to do.

I'm sure they are very pleasant.

They are ineligible to play in a single sex team though. As has been repeatedly pointed out, mixed sex teams have very specific rules.

Human beings cannot change sex. So if someone is playing in a single sex sport when they are not in fact that sex, then yes, they are cheating.

We are not allowed to use the word "cheat" and derivations now? About some unnamed, unidentified individuals?

Bloody hell, 1984.

Sorry, I do not agree to having my vocabulary neutered in that way.

Even the OP has said that the two TWs involved were perfectly pleasant

I never get why this is supposed to matter. It doesn't matter whether they're delightful or not; there's nothing about 'all right we'll have males but only the nice ones'. The argument that it's fine because its one sweet friend of ours has caused problems before, because that means when a male arrives who will present challenges there is no saying no because to say yes to males means all males. Any males. The door is opened.

It comes down to whether giving male people the lovely experience of playing as women on a women's team is a justified reason to remove female only sports from all females at a cost to females and exclusion of some. Or whether a better solution is to use mixed sex provision alongside female only provision which means everyone is included and all needs are met.

It's the difference between holding genuine concern for the integrity of women's spaces, and simply wanting to exclude TWs from as many social spaces as possible

This is a misreading (deliberate?) of @TraumatisedinTwickenham's post. She doesn't say she wants to "exclude" transwomen - but she is very concerned about the integrity of women's spaces - the playing field ad the changing room.

I do a different hobby, and on a few occasions have to share space and changing rooms with really obvious transwomen. In my hobby, to get ready, you pretty much get naked and change into specialised clothing.

I get so angry being put in the position of having to share a crowded open change room (no cubicles) and communal showers with a male-bodied person. Who does do the walking around semi-naked or in underwear thing on occasion. Because I know they are a TRA and they're doing it to exert dominance.

If the TRAs are so sure that the majority of people are fine with it, then why not conduct an anonymous poll. Ask every female player in the relevant league, anonymously, if they are happy to compete against transwomen or would prefer proper single-sex sport.

I guarantee the overwhelming majority will want the latter. Including many of those who called the poor OP a bigot.

OP, dont be surprised if in coming days/weeks you receive whispered words of support from others in your team. There will be lots who agree with you but are too scared to say so

My friends trans son still plays on the women’s team. They are barely 5ft, wonder why they’ve made that choice.

@KaycePollard

It's the difference between holding genuine concern for the integrity of women's spaces, and simply wanting to exclude TWs from as many social spaces as possible

This is a misreading (deliberate?) of @TraumatisedinTwickenham's post. She doesn't say she wants to "exclude" transwomen - but she is very concerned about the integrity of women's spaces - the playing field ad the changing room.

I do a different hobby, and on a few occasions have to share space and changing rooms with really obvious transwomen. In my hobby, to get ready, you pretty much get naked and change into specialised clothing.

I get so angry being put in the position of having to share a crowded open change room (no cubicles) and communal showers with a male-bodied person. Who does do the walking around semi-naked or in underwear thing on occasion. Because I know they are a TRA and they're doing it to exert dominance.

I don’t particularly think that the OP is seeking to exclude TW from all social spaces. There are, on the face of it, other posters here who do. One poster has suggested an coordinated campaign of ostracising trans people, and no-one has challenged her on it. There’s a world of space between ‘being kind’, and behaving like that.

You and I agree on changing rooms.

@Larryyourwaiter

My friends trans son still plays on the women’s team. They are barely 5ft, wonder why they’ve made that choice.

I don't think anyone has an issue with trans men who aren't on testosterone continuing to play on womens teams!

@sharksarecool

If the TRAs are so sure that the majority of people are fine with it, then why not conduct an anonymous poll. Ask every female player in the relevant league, anonymously, if they are happy to compete against transwomen or would prefer proper single-sex sport.

I guarantee the overwhelming majority will want the latter. Including many of those who called the poor OP a bigot.

OP, dont be surprised if in coming days/weeks you receive whispered words of support from others in your team. There will be lots who agree with you but are too scared to say so

But what would you say if the poll didn’t support you? Would you change your mind then? I don’t mean this rhetorically, these are actual questions

I don’t think it’s hugely controversial to say that this place can be an echo chamber (even I, who seem to be out on a limb, would count as on balance GC). I don’t think you can presume that most of the rest of the world thinks like you do.

the OP is seeking to exclude TW from all social spaces.

No. Not true. Not from male spaces. Not from mixed sex spaces.

Female spaces cannot be female spaces once used by TW. This matters. Not least because of how it's being framed as unreasonable that the female half of the human race should want or be entitled to spaces and resources of their own.

But what would you say if the poll didn’t support you? Would you change your mind then? I don’t mean this rhetorically, these are actual questions

Well that's fine obviously - if the majority wanted to play as a mixed sex team, then resign from the womens league and rejoin the mixed league. Those that voted to remain single sex, even if they're a minority, stay on the existing womens team.
Hardly controversial!

@Waitwhat23

As Artichoke points out, this is the second poster who has said today that women should remove themselves from existing and established women's teams to set up their own 'natal only, or 'gc' or 'female' services and provisions. Is this the bizarre new TRA approach?

The current services and provisions are for women. If people want to set up 'inclusive' services which are mixed sex and the participants are clear about this when they join, then fine, go for it. The women participating will have joined being aware of the risks of mixed sex sport (in this case in particular).

Making such existing services mixed sex and then insisting that the women then forced out of provision which was originally single sex set up another version of the original provision is just colonisation and exclusion. It's ridiculous.

This. These are not mixed sex teams and changing single sex to mixed sex by stealth is unethical and immoral. I don't care what the rules are: excluding women and taking away provisions from women should never be ok. And yes, it is exluding women when you know this change by stealth means women will stop playing.

This is not equity in outcome, this is deciding these male people deserve more opportunities and chances than female people. As these male people can play on the male team, the mixed sex team and the female team and still be safe and one of the best players. Female people can't.

But what would you say if the poll didn’t support you? Would you change your mind then?

Personally I wouldn't, because I don't think it's right that female spaces become mixed sex consisting of male people and the female people able to centre those male people's needs, who also have the privilege and freedom to be able to cope with mixed sex spaces.

I'm not ok with excluding some females from anything at all in order to allow males to have this additional freedom of choice.

I don't care if it's only a few females excluded. We're not talking about huge amounts of TW, but one is seen as important: why is it that there have to be recognised large numbers of women affected before they matter anything like equally? Either exclusion matters or it doesn't.

If the majority of women are great with playing sport in mixed sex settings then wonderful, there's your mixed sex league right there. Add. Don't subtract.

@titchy

But what would you say if the poll didn’t support you? Would you change your mind then? I don’t mean this rhetorically, these are actual questions

Well that's fine obviously - if the majority wanted to play as a mixed sex team, then resign from the womens league and rejoin the mixed league. Those that voted to remain single sex, even if they're a minority, stay on the existing womens team.
Hardly controversial!

Sharksarecool’s post talks about polling everyone in the relevant league.

One thing we don’t know is whether this is something that was discussed at the league’s AGM or similar, and voted on by the clubs. It’s entirely possible that some kind of due process was followed, but the OP doesn’t give any indication of having done that.

Voted on at the agm - I’d be absolutely amazed if someone stood up at a hockey club agm & said “how do we feel about including men in the Women's team?”

I can't write another post as this makes me so furious. Women and girls are underrepresented in all sports at all levels. Sport is known to be massively beneficial to mental and physical health. How incredibly selfish does a transwoman have to be to think they can trample all over women, and colonise our sports, excluding us from our own sports???

And the poster suggesting that women leave their own fucking sport, to start a GC league, what the fuck are you on?
It's like we're stuck in April fucking Fool's Day. Time for 'trans women' to #BeKind and get out of women's spaces. Play with the other penis-havers

I imagine it’s because they wouldn’t want him/for their safety.

• Sharksarecool’s post talks about polling everyone in the relevant league.

One thing we don’t know is whether this is something that was discussed at the league’s AGM or similar, and voted on by the clubs. It’s entirely possible that some kind of due process was followed, but the OP doesn’t give any indication of having done that.

Yes I was too. When teams join a league, they sign up to abide by the rules specific to the league. So yes, if Pit Village womens hockey team signed up to join Western county division 4 womens league, they signed up as a womens team playing the womens rules.

If the majority in Western county womens division 4 want to play as mixed sex then they join Western county mixed sex league. Those that don't, remain in Western county division 4 womens league.

@Charley50

I can't write another post as this makes me so furious. Women and girls are underrepresented in all sports at all levels. Sport is known to be massively beneficial to mental and physical health. How incredibly selfish does a transwoman have to be to think they can trample all over women, and colonise our sports, excluding us from our own sports???

And the poster suggesting that women leave their own fucking sport, to start a GC league, what the fuck are you on?
It's like we're stuck in April fucking Fool's Day. Time for 'trans women' to #BeKind and get out of women's spaces. Play with the other penis-havers

The conversation had been quite civil up to this point.

Would you rather everyone on this board agreed with you? That there should be no discourse at all? I’m not arguing that men/TW should be allowed in rape crisis centres or women’s prisons (on which I’m sure we would agree). I’m suggesting that we should tolerate their presence in a game of recreational hockey.

@titchy

* Sharksarecool’s post talks about polling everyone in the relevant league.

One thing we don’t know is whether this is something that was discussed at the league’s AGM or similar, and voted on by the clubs. It’s entirely possible that some kind of due process was followed, but the OP doesn’t give any indication of having done that.

Yes I was too. When teams join a league, they sign up to abide by the rules specific to the league. So yes, if Pit Village womens hockey team signed up to join Western county division 4 womens league, they signed up as a womens team playing the womens rules.

If the majority in Western county womens division 4 want to play as mixed sex then they join Western county mixed sex league. Those that don't, remain in Western county division 4 womens league.

So there would be no point in asking women what they think, because you would seek to exclude TW anyway?

Transwomen can play recreational hockey if they wish to. They can play with their own sex or they can play in a mixed sex league, .

So there would be no point in asking women what they think, because you would seek to exclude TW anyway?

From the womens league yes obviously. You yourself admitted having TW on a womens team makes it a mixed sex team!

Some people want to play on mixed sex teams. Some want to play on single sex teams. Both exist - choice for all! That's good surely?!

One poster has suggested an coordinated campaign of ostracising trans people, and no-one has challenged her on it. There’s a world of space between ‘being kind’, and behaving like that.

Either you're wilfully misrepresenting what I said, or you don't know what ostracism means.

What I suggested - what I would myself do in this situation - would be to opt out of playing in any match where there was a transperson on the pitch. And I said that, if everyone who was unhappy playing against transwomen were to vote with their feet, then the team will have no one to play against and it the leagues would have to re-think.

So, basically, a boycott. Not ostracism. Ostracism would involve ingnoring transwomen in a social setting, and seeking to isolate them from wider social activities, which is not what I suggested at all.

For what it's worth, while I think a boycott would be a fantastic way to send a message to the sporting bodies, I don't think it will be the thing that makes the difference. The thing that will make the difference will be when a woman/teenager is killed or suffers life-changing injuries on pitch caused by a transwoman.

’m not arguing that men/TW should be allowed in rape crisis centres or women’s prisons (on which I’m sure we would agree). I’m suggesting that we should tolerate their presence in a game of recreational hockey.

Genuine question. Do you think that Men who do not identify as Women should also be tolerated in the Women's team in a game of recreational hockey?

@sharksarecool

One poster has suggested an coordinated campaign of ostracising trans people, and no-one has challenged her on it. There’s a world of space between ‘being kind’, and behaving like that.

Either you're wilfully misrepresenting what I said, or you don't know what ostracism means.

What I suggested - what I would myself do in this situation - would be to opt out of playing in any match where there was a transperson on the pitch. And I said that, if everyone who was unhappy playing against transwomen were to vote with their feet, then the team will have no one to play against and it the leagues would have to re-think.

So, basically, a boycott. Not ostracism. Ostracism would involve ingnoring transwomen in a social setting, and seeking to isolate them from wider social activities, which is not what I suggested at all.

For what it's worth, while I think a boycott would be a fantastic way to send a message to the sporting bodies, I don't think it will be the thing that makes the difference. The thing that will make the difference will be when a woman/teenager is killed or suffers life-changing injuries on pitch caused by a transwoman.

I’m happy to call that a coordinated campaign of ostracism. You’re not boycotting the club or the league , you’re refusing to have anything to do with trans people. That is ostracism and it is repellent transphobia.