Transwomen in womens sport: advice sought..

[TraumatisedinTwickenham]

I’ve name changed as this may be outing.

As a hobby I play a team sport. I play for a womens team in a womens league.
We played against a team recently which had two trans women in the tram. Both well over 6 ft and faster, stronger than the women on my team.

They were both in the ladies changing room before the game. I wasn’t changing as I had arrived already in my sports gear but there are open showers in there and I certainty wouldn’t have felt comfortable showering in knowing that there was a trans woman in the space.

I’m really quite traumatised about it. I thought a womens league was inherently a single sex league but this doesn’t seem to be the case here. I have thought about going to the governing body of the sport but noticed that their website has an interview with the club for which the team we played represents as part of LGBTQ+ history month.

Incidentally, both of the trans people were very pleasant friendly people, not that this is really relevant, why wouldn’t they be. But it doesn’t change the fact that anyone who has been through male puberty has an undeniable advantage over women. I just don’t think that they should be participating in a womens team in a womens league but don’t know what the actual legal position is.

I was really upset (unexpectedly so) during the game and now half my own team thinks I’m a bigot..

I just don’t know what to do.

Most of the arguments are distractions.. yes safety is important.. yes ... safeguarding is important.. but the key point is that the reason for segregation by biological sex is to ensure the "right of female athletes, who are relevantly biologically disadvantaged vis- à-vis male athletes, to be able to compete against other female athletes and to achieve the benefits of athletic success."

Quote from the judgement of the Court of Arbitration of Sport regarding 46XV DSD athletes.

I cannot understand how this right of fair competition has been so easily pushed aside. The deliberation in that judgement was considered and discussed the competing rights of those who's legal sex was different to their biological one and the rights of females and deemed that the discrimination was necessary, reasonable and proportionate.

Some other quotations from the judgement...

"the purpose of the male-female divide in competitive athletics is not to protect athletes with a female legal sex from having to compete against athletes with a male legal sex. Nor is it to protect athletes with a female gender identity from having to compete against athletes with a male gender identity. Rather, it is to protect individuals whose bodies have developed in a certain way following puberty from having to compete against individuals who, by virtue of their bodies having developed in a different way following puberty, possess certain physical traits that create such a significant performance advantage that fair competition between the two groups is not possible. "

'a rule that imposes differential treatment on the basis of a particular protected characteristic is valid if it is a necessary, reasonable and proportionate means of attaining a legitimate objective.'

'The Panel accepts the IAAF’s submission that reference to a person’s legal sex alone may not always constitute a fair and effective means of making that determination. This is because the reason for the separation between male and female categories in competitive athletics is ultimately founded on biology rather than legal status. The purpose of having separate categories is to protect a class of individuals who lack certain insuperable performance advantages from having to compete against individuals who possess those insuperable advantages. In this regard, the fact that a person is recognised in law as a woman and identifies as a woman does not necessarily mean that they lack those insuperable performance advantages associated with certain biological traits that predominate in individuals who are generally (but not always) recognised in law as males and self-identify as males. It is human biology, not legal status or gender identity, that ultimately determines which individuals possess the physical traits which give rise to that insuperable advantage and which do not.'

ChateauMargaux

Thanks for the quotes.

I think that we have established just ‘who’ on this thread was easily pushing aside the rights for women to have a female sports team. I don’t think they convinced anyone.

Unfortunately @Helleofabore ... The IOC have recently said that 'athletes should be allowed to compete in the category that best aligns with their self determined gender identity'.

The IOC, have pushed aside the automatic right of women to have a fair competition.

They have put the rights of self identified transgender athletes first and have challenged anyone who wishes to restrict their access to female competition to do so based on extensive peer reviewed studies to prove their competitive advantage and criteria to determine eligibility cannot include examinations that seek to determine the sex of the competitor.

stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/News/2021/11/IOC-Framework-Fairness-Inclusion-Non-discrimination-2021.pdf?_ga=2.221508369.805542045.1637136580-1975557268.1637136580

It makes for horrifying reading.

I have read it Margaux and it is a depressing read. It remains for women to get very vocal now unfortunately if the fight back is to happen. A good thing that there are some amazing people that are well underway to fight it who CAN be out there in public. Because there are so very many who simply cannot be vocal still.

I don't have your faith... I find it very depressing.

Unfortunately @Helleofabore ... The IOC have recently said that 'athletes should be allowed to compete in the category that best aligns with their self determined gender identity'.

Which is bonkers as most people don't have a gender identity. There can only be an alignment of 2 things if both of them actually exist.

I have been reading this thread with interest as I play a different sport which is non-contact at club level. As I captain a team playing against other clubs I looked on the sport’s website to get an idea of the inclusion policy in case my team turned up to play and found a trans woman or transwomen on the opposing team.
The result? ‘Trans women may compete in female domestic competitions.’ Also on the website there was a large section on how to encourage female participation. Make things more difficult for females then wonder why they don’t want to participate.
Presumably I could not refuse to play against transwomen, and any objections later would not be listened to because of this policy.

For clarity it is a physical sport, not anything like chess or cards!

I think most sports in the UK have similar policies as they all just followed what their inclusion trainers and the IOC said to do.
I don’t think any of them asked their female members.
It’s worth a pushback to them now the national conversation has changed.

Right, time to go and write an email 😁

Nice one, Square. Let us know how you get on.

@ChateauMargaux

Unfortunately *@Helleofabore* ... The IOC have recently said that 'athletes should be allowed to compete in the category that best aligns with their self determined gender identity'.

The IOC, have pushed aside the automatic right of women to have a fair competition.

They have put the rights of self identified transgender athletes first and have challenged anyone who wishes to restrict their access to female competition to do so based on extensive peer reviewed studies to prove their competitive advantage and criteria to determine eligibility cannot include examinations that seek to determine the sex of the competitor.

stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/News/2021/11/IOC-Framework-Fairness-Inclusion-Non-discrimination-2021.pdf?_ga=2.221508369.805542045.1637136580-1975557268.1637136580

It makes for horrifying reading.

They could, and should have stopped writing those guidelines after the first paragraph. Unfortunately they didn’t.

It's still perfectly legal and reasonable for individual clubs to decide that, even though England Hockey allow transwomen to compete in the women's game, that they as a club won't allow TW onto the women's team or into their changing rooms.

Within my own sport (not hockey) this would not be permitted. All clubs/teams have to play under the rules and regulations of the national governing body which for the purposes of our level of competition means self IDing transwomen may play in the women's teams without question.
It's only at national level where IoC testosterone rules are followed.

I'm not surprised you're upset, OP - you've just found out how little women matter in this society.

@TraumatisedinTwickenham

They’re happy at the moment. After all it’s only one opposition team and 2 trans women. Imagine if, in the womens league, we came up against a team comprising of 11 trans women. I all but guarantee people would be unhappy. Whether anyone would speak up is a different matter. It’s an unlikely scenario I grant you. But being unlikely shouldn’t mean they we shouldn’t protect against it.

Incidentally it’s been over 24 hours now. I’m feeling less upset now. Now I’m just really angry.

Wait till they realise the teams with the most transwomen win all the games. Or that the women who clash with them are the ones coming out with injuries. Reality doesn't give a flying whatsit what these daft team mates of yours think. But yes, it might take some time for the penny to drop.

The first time a woman is charged at by a transwoman and feels just how big and strong that person is, I think the penny will start to drop with her.
And when the team starts to select players based on their male attributes.

At lower competitive levels you don't need very many male players to completely skew the game - one or two strikers or attacking midfields would do it.

Apart from all that's been said there's a more general point.

All males know that there are places and things that are not for them. They know that because everyone knows that. (Barring a small number of vocal people who pretend they don't and those that for whatever reason are on board).

Everyone knows things like sport, communal changing, toilets, support services where they were men/ women it meant sex. And for pretty much everyone in the UK, INCLUDING most people and orgs that say it means gender, use women men as sex when it suits them.

The insistence single sex things were always single gender is nonsense. They were always to do with sex. Some orgs eg prisons turns out have been ignoring that for decades. But kept it very quiet so public in general assumed male/female (which is really not on, the stuff with NHS wards insanely underhand as they actively lied).

So given that everyone knows it always was sex and why was just totally obvious.
Safety, dignity etc. Totally the cultural norm and many situations so you couldn't miss it.

And the preference for both sexes, men don't want women around while they're stripping as well as vice versa. Apart from a small amount who have their own reasons.

Males who have an internal gender id of woman. And non binary males who 'feel comfortable' in the small number of single sex areas marked for women. And bigender etc males on 'girl days' as I've seen it referred to.

They ALL KNOW that single sex has always meant sex, the reasons for male/ female separation in some things. And most importantly things labelled 'women', massively vast majority do not expect or want males to be there full stop. Some things more women likely to turn a blind eye. Bogs essentially. But that doesn't mean they feel comfy. They're putting up with it. And that's only some not all.

So the million dollar question is.

Given that we're told over and over that TW (and other genders mentioned) just want to get on and live their lives quietly without being hassled judged etc.

Why on earth do any use/ join / women's things?

I am interested in a DECENT EXPLANATION from those why believe males should be included in things like women's hockey if they wish.

Not what those who think sex matters believe might be a reason. I am familiar with those. I am interested in a view from those who say it's fine in any/all those situations.

And not just TWAW the end that doesn't cut it.

IF you want a quiet life getting on with things etc.

Then why on earth would you as a male join women's hockey? Want to work in a women's refuge? Join a gym with communal changing and use the women's?

None of those things are things you have to do. None are things you have only one place available to choose from. And even if they were. Surely if want a quiet life etc and knowing full well males just should not be there.

Why do it? It's totally nonsensical. And of course loads of trans people DO get on with things quietly and don't go in things for women. Because they know what it will make some/ most women uncomfy. And they don't want that.

I am interested to hear the reason why anyone would think we need to segregate sports according to the nebulous idea of 'gender identity'. Why was that ever thought to be needed in the first place?

Also, if we're not segregating by physical size, does that mean that we will abolish boxing categories and the featherweights will compete with the heavyweights? If not, why not? Why segregate by size/ power/ strength for men but do away with the offering of a sex-protected sports space for women?

Because some men wanted to is answer to first part.

Actual reason for logic of making everything mixed sex. Is that being in with the women is the whole point. Mixed sex everything is a total no-no.

Jeez, what a horrible situation @TraumatisedinTwickenham.

It’s just so crazy.