Transwomen in womens sport: advice sought..

[TraumatisedinTwickenham]

I’ve name changed as this may be outing.

As a hobby I play a team sport. I play for a womens team in a womens league.
We played against a team recently which had two trans women in the tram. Both well over 6 ft and faster, stronger than the women on my team.

They were both in the ladies changing room before the game. I wasn’t changing as I had arrived already in my sports gear but there are open showers in there and I certainty wouldn’t have felt comfortable showering in knowing that there was a trans woman in the space.

I’m really quite traumatised about it. I thought a womens league was inherently a single sex league but this doesn’t seem to be the case here. I have thought about going to the governing body of the sport but noticed that their website has an interview with the club for which the team we played represents as part of LGBTQ+ history month.

Incidentally, both of the trans people were very pleasant friendly people, not that this is really relevant, why wouldn’t they be. But it doesn’t change the fact that anyone who has been through male puberty has an undeniable advantage over women. I just don’t think that they should be participating in a womens team in a womens league but don’t know what the actual legal position is.

I was really upset (unexpectedly so) during the game and now half my own team thinks I’m a bigot..

I just don’t know what to do.

it's recreational sport and it sounds like most people are cool with it.

And others aren't, and want to continue to play in female only sports and not mixed sex sports. Should those females be excluded as less important than males?

And two males per team?

How exactly are you going to limit it? The whole point is that they are on the female team because they identify as women, the issues are safety in playing sports against male people because of the reality of differences in biological sex, and privacy for same reasons. It doesn't matter if there's one or eleven male people, the issues for the female team don't go away. And how on earth would you say there are two TW places on every team and select accordingly and limit? That seems a whole lot more unfair to me than saying this is a mixed team and this is a female only team. Not to mention clearly acknowledging that TW sports players and female sports players are two different groups being merged.

The answer, obviously, is mixed teams. On which there is no need to limit TW numbers and worry about the impact of that on TW players, and no need either to worry about the impact upon female players, because those going into mixed sex teams are

1. signing up to do so with informed consent
2. are lucky enough to have no barriers to mixed sex provision
3. still leaving female sport intact to ensure no females are excluded.

TW sports players and their supporters really need to start being a bit more inclusive and generous towards women in general. Forcing women out of women's sports isn't a good look. And it makes a nonsense of saying 'inclusion'.

And if the OP and her GC friends want to set up a natal-women-only league, then there is no law against that. It sounds as if they would get plenty of encouragement too.

Errr yeah, they already did. The one they're currently in. And no, the teams cannot just decide they're a mixed team. They'd have to actually leave the womens league and rejoin a mixed league.

Arsenal ladies can't just decide they're mixed halfway through a season.

And if the OP and her GC friends want to set up a natal-women-only league, then there is no law against that. It sounds as if they would get plenty of encouragement too.

Second attempt today to paint

• GC as some small, niche political group newly emerged instead of females, as 50% of the entire population and female spaces being to serve their needs, not mixed sex needs.

• Suggesting that it is for female people to surrender their existing provision to males (much of which was fought for and set up by females with very little help) and go and start again from scratch.

No. Ridiculous. And both twisting the truth to try and remove support from female people who will not comply with male superiority.

If this was recreational rugby, I'd have concerns. If it was top level competitive hockey, I'd have concerns. It's neither; it's recreational sport and it sounds like most people are cool with it.

Do you think I should be allowed to enter my 15 year old son in a local under 12 boys' hockey league?

If it's not rugby, and it's not top level competitive sport, it doesn't matter, right?

Hockey may not be rugby, but it's still a physical sport. They're not sitting on the field casually sipping tea.

I found a sports medicine page focusing on field hockey injuries. These are types of injury which are more likely to occur if there are strength mismatches between players, such as a ball being hit by a male player and colliding with a female player. If you look at this table of male advantage in sport, a field hockey technique is at the most extreme end of disparities!

WHAT ARE THE COMMON FIELD HOCKEY INJURIES?

Although field hockey is classified as a non-contact sport, acute injuries may result from contact with a stick, the ball, another player or the playing surface or goal cage.

The most common injuries in women's field hockey include:

Hand and wrist injuries
Because field hockey is played in a semi-crouched position with the right hand placed low on the stick, the hands and fingers are extremely vulnerable to injury from contact with the ball or an opponent's stick. Hand fractures, especially in the fingers are common.

Facial injuries
Accidental contact with a ball or an opponent's stick may result in injury to the face. While the majority of these injuries are minor cuts and bruises, more severe injuries such as facial fractures, penetrating eye injuries, and broken teeth have been reported.

Ankle injury
Ankle sprains are the most frequent injury in sports. Inversion-type ankle sprains have been estimated to comprise roughly 15 percent of all injuries sustained during field hockey participation.

Knee injury
Knee injuries, including anterior cruciate ligament (ACL ) tears, are very common, as are muscle strains, particularly of the quadriceps and hamstrings.

Concussion
Concussions represent approximately 7 percent of all injuries sustained during field hockey competitions. Dizziness and confusion are the most common symptoms of a concussion, although longer-term issues such as headache, fatigue, and difficulty concentrating may also occur.

Overuse injuries
While acute injuries are often more dramatic in nature, chronic injuries comprise a significant number of injuries. Chronic injuries such as low back pain, tendinitis of the hip, knee or ankle, and stress fractures of the leg and foot, typically result from repetitive activity and overuse. Learn more about overuse injuries.

www.urmc.rochester.edu/orthopaedics/sports-medicine/field-hockey-injuries.cfm

Also if teams are mixed there is no problem about changing, as two sets of changing rooms will be open, one for female bodied sports people and one for male bodied sports people.

Bear in mind too: women are arguing frantically to be allowed keep any female provision to be female only. Refuges. Hospital wards. Prisons. Sports. They're allowed fucking nothing .

There is not the generosity on the part of this political lobby and supporters to permit female born people anything , it must all serve males.

And now 'if you want, go and set up female only stuff'. Despite the very obvious facts that rats are nailed to doors and we have all seen the response this lobby makes to females trying to create or keep anything that male people cannot take and own.

And this from a political position trying to tell me that 'sex isn't a thing' and 'no one knows what sex anyone is'.

There's a point at which this just becomes over male supremacism on crack. It's appalling.

We are arguing for some women to be excluded from all sporting leagues, so that some male people can have a choice of which league to play in.

Twiceover. Both those who will withdraw because they don't want to play with males, and those who will be excluded because there are, by definition, limited places on a team.

@334bu

Also if teams are mixed there is no problem about changing, as two sets of changing rooms will be open, one for female bodied sports people and one for male bodied sports people.

If hockey is going to be trans-inclusive (which seems the obvious drift) would completely agree that there should be a third space available for TW to change.

@Artichokeleaves

Bear in mind too: women are arguing frantically to be allowed keep any female provision to be female only. Refuges. Hospital wards. Prisons. Sports. They're allowed fucking nothing .

There is not the generosity on the part of this political lobby and supporters to permit female born people anything , it must all serve males.

And now 'if you want, go and set up female only stuff'. Despite the very obvious facts that rats are nailed to doors and we have all seen the response this lobby makes to females trying to create or keep anything that male people cannot take and own.

And this from a political position trying to tell me that 'sex isn't a thing' and 'no one knows what sex anyone is'.

There's a point at which this just becomes over male supremacism on crack. It's appalling.

I'm certainly not arguing that 'sex isn't a thing'. Read my posts.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

We are arguing for some women to be excluded from all sporting leagues, so that some male people can have a choice of which league to play in.

Twiceover. Both those who will withdraw because they don't want to play with males, and those who will be excluded because there are, by definition, limited places on a team.

But if a majority, or a sizeable minority, of women want to play in trans-exclusionary/natal women-only teams (delete per your preference) then they will do so. The clubs and leagues will reflect the views of their members. But that's not what's happening?

I just want to add my two penn'orth; you are NOT, repeat NOT a bigot. I would feel exactly the same way as you. I don't expect or want to share personal spaces with biological men. I have my reasons for that.
The fact that whoever organized this thought that women would not be upset says it all. They clearly don't understand why females are upset and more importantly I think they don't care. I'm with you on this 100%.

How about people set up separate single gender leagues, and make the rules all above board, thus making it also an informed decision for all players? And with the insurance and umpiring fully sorted out?

Rather than a duplicitous behind-the-scenes "slide" from teams and leagues that were set up by women, for women?

The fact that whoever organized this thought that women would not be upset says it all.

But it sounds, even by the OP's account, that most women were not upset?

But if a majority, or a sizeable minority, of women want to play in trans-exclusionary/natal women-only teams (delete per your preference) then they will do so. The clubs and leagues will reflect the views of their members. But that's not what's happening?

Then the team should change to being a mixed sex one and more importantly adopt the specific rules around mix sex.

The fact that this is a womens team playing in a womens league suggests that there is in fact a preference for a women only league.

At the end of the season if the team wants to disband and reform as a mixed team that's fine, but at the moment they are playing in a womens league. And need to remain so until the end of the season.

Perhaps you'd be ok if Arsenal ladies unilaterally decided they were a mixed team and played Patrick Viera but remained competing in the womens league?

It is a shame that those who want to carry on playing in the teams and leagues that they currently play in, will have to accept this new status quo or just leave.

Women and girls face so many barriers to sport, most of them societal. On the pitch, girls have to be better to keep their place in mixed teams, they are quieter than the boys, often outnumbered and often ignored on the pitch. Over the past 10 years watching mixed hockey here.. only the toughest most determined girls stay the course.. most prefer to play in all girls sport where they are accepted and not overlooked. The reality is that this will have a negative impact on girls and women and it is not all about safety.

@thedancingbear

The fact that whoever organized this thought that women would not be upset says it all.

But it sounds, even by the OP's account, that most women were not upset?

Most women were not asked.

And those who were upset will have seen the way OP was treated and will be far less likely to speak up for fear of being bullied in the same way OP was when she explained how she felt.

If a sizeable minority of women would prefer to play on single-gender teams rather than single-sex teams, then they will set up the leagues!

It’s not recreational or contact so it doesn’t matter? Are you for real?

How are you supposed to say no at elite level if you can’t say no at grass roots where there’s less skill level and size and strength matters more. How are you supposed to say no to contact sport when it’s been ‘fine’ in all other sports? How are you supposed to create rules and regulations without being able to openly discuss the issues or even disclose who is the transwoman you are talking about?

What sort of moveable goalpost FrankenRules are we creating if we can’t be honest about the differences between males and females (we have 100 years of sport stats, medical data and participation numbers to show this is not a straight swap)

Quite Prion! Ppl know what happens to women who even quietly question that men however they present are not women.

So much disingenuous going on - Women who speak up are regularly monstered

If they ask and tou say no you’re a bigot
If they ask and you say yes because you’re afraid of being frozen out and giving up the sport you love it’s taken as ‘well no one complained”

Most women were not asked.

Probably no women were asked? The ability of intelligent people to ignore the evidence of their own eyes and statistics collected over decades, because it does not fit their nonsensical belief that males who identify as women are exactly the same as women who have female bodies , is absolutely mind blowing.

@OperationDessertStorm

It’s not recreational or contact so it doesn’t matter? Are you for real?

How are you supposed to say no at elite level if you can’t say no at grass roots where there’s less skill level and size and strength matters more. How are you supposed to say no to contact sport when it’s been ‘fine’ in all other sports? How are you supposed to create rules and regulations without being able to openly discuss the issues or even disclose who is the transwoman you are talking about?

What sort of moveable goalpost FrankenRules are we creating if we can’t be honest about the differences between males and females (we have 100 years of sport stats, medical data and participation numbers to show this is not a straight swap)

I never said that it didn't matter. My position is that, provided the participants are fine with it, and they seem to be, then there don't seem to be fundamental safety or fairness concerns, like there would be with elite sport, or eg. any rugby.

The idea that the majority of women involved in the teams are really GC but are scared of being bullied by a vocal pro-trans minority is just a bit silly, and completely without evidence. It's the classic presumption that, because my friends and I think x, then so does the rest of the world. The general drift towards tolerance and acceptance of trans people should underline that this really ain't the case here.

So do I get this argument right: women who don't want to play against male people on the womens team should leave and setup their own womens team? So leave an established club, with playing fields and coaches and facilities, to start again, because some male people want to play on a team that is not meant for their sex?

Wow. Just wow. Female people really don't count, do they?

My position is that, provided the participants are fine with it, and they seem to be, then there don't seem to be fundamental safety or fairness concerns, like there would be with elite sport, or eg. any rugby.

They are playing in a womens league, to womens team rules. With men! They are cheating. How do you not see that? It's really bizarre.

@sanluca

So do I get this argument right: women who don't want to play against male people on the womens team should leave and setup their own womens team? So leave an established club, with playing fields and coaches and facilities, to start again, because some male people want to play on a team that is not meant for their sex?

Wow. Just wow. Female people really don't count, do they?

If they are the minority within the club, or the league, as, even by the OP's account, seems to be the case, then yes.

Maybe they should also unilaterally decide to have 15 on the team - after all I'm sure the majority would be fine!