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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

999 replies

ViceLikeBlip · 08/11/2021 21:58

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

OP posts:
julieca · 10/11/2021 20:57

Julie Bindel and Sheila Jeffries both say they chose to be lesbians. Neither thinks sexuality is innate. And both have written books on this and given talks about it.
Not sure why you would think I haven't met Sheila Jeffries.

I am not sure why you think I thought LGBT Coordinators are the way to tackle some of the health issues I raised or why you think I don't know how health and social care are split and that a lot of it is privatised or run by charities?
Age UK for example has been raising the issue of homophobia in care homes. But it as you say a difficult issue to solve, especially when there is already a crisis in terms of staffing.
I was talking about some of the specific health issues that affect lesbians in response to the posts saying they did not exist. I am well aware the solutions are extremely difficult or maybe impossible.

However specifically -

For example, providing clear information about whether lesbians need smears and why. Some lesbians think they don't as this was at one time the official stance.
This is not about letters inviting lesbians to smears. This would be about a targeted public health campaign. Public health campaigns barely exist in this country now due to cuts. But if there was political will this could happen.

Its changing with younger people, but older lesbians are far less likely to be in touch with their families. So do befriending schemes and other schemes aimed at older people meet the needs of this group?
Befriending schemes already run for older and housebound people. Its not even about setting up a specifically lesbian scheme, just looking at the equalities side of the schemes already funded by government, mainly through grants to charities.

Fair point about psychiatrists being medical doctors. The immature sexuality in terms of Freudian influence is from an actual experience of a friend on a locked mental health ward.

Yes I know substance misuse programmes are commissioned or run through charities. There is a fair bit of feminist research around how badly some of these meet the needs of women who misuse substances. Just because they are strictly controlled, does not mean everything is fine.

But my overall point was simply to say that yes lesbians do have some specific health needs and to give some examples.

FlyingOink · 10/11/2021 21:00

Julie Bindel and Sheila Jeffries both say they chose to be lesbians. Neither thinks sexuality is innate. And both have written books on this and given talks about it.
Well, that might be true for them, who knows.

I think the rest of your post is aimed at another poster, so good night

bordermidgebite · 10/11/2021 21:02

The science seems to suggest it ( sexuality) is innate

I can't remember all I read up but one piece of evidence for this is that the proportion of the population who are gay is constant through different times and cultures , even very homophobic cultures

It can be objectively measured I believe ( possibly through sub conscious things such as eyes widening )

This contrasts strongly with trans identifying people where rates are very culture dependent

NecessaryScene · 10/11/2021 21:10

FWIW, I think the 'brain in the wrong body' model would work a lot better as a model of homosexuality than transgenderism. It makes more sense, because the most sexed brain thing is sexual orientation. And you can detect other behaviours that tend to flip with sexuality. It's not just a stereotype that gay men can be effeminate and lesbians butch.

Still too crude a model - even if some behaviour is 'cross-sex', not everything is (crime rates aren't), and it's all just statistical. Clearly if a woman can be attracted to women, then it's not a uniquely male trait, so it is not evidence of being a man. It would be ridiculous and insulting to say a lesbian is a man. But maybe it is an indication of some other development path being taken somewhere, which is more normally taken by men.

But the ladybrain claims of straight males seem to have no basis whatsoever. Nothing in their behaviour remotely resembles females (even butch lesbians) - indeed they seem to be hypermasculine. It's a claim invented to justify a desire; it very poorly models the real world.

GoldenBlue · 10/11/2021 21:13

Personally I believe sexuality is innate. The choice relates to the actions taken.

However unlike sex sexuality is not binary, it is a spectrum. Many are at either end if the attraction scale and identify as heterosexual and homosexual. Some are in the middle and are happy fancying both males and females. Others generally fancy males or females but have on some occasions found specific members or types of the other sex attractive.

Social norms historically meant many felt constrained to live a heterosexual life. Things have changed now and this generation feel less concerned and constrained to heteronormacy and therefore more open to acting on desires.

Who you fancy doesn't impinge on others as long as it only involves consenting adults then it's all good.

People with strong religious beliefs that disapprove of homosexuality are fine, they can jus5 choose not to have homosexual sex 😀 but someone's beliefs should not impringe on others behaviour.

So someone's belief that they are the opposite sex can happily continue, as long as they don't expect others to change their behaviour or expect to be able to impinge on others rights.

The idea that lesbians must include penis in their sex life is just rape culture epitomised.

Artichokeleaves · 10/11/2021 21:17

However unlike sex sexuality is not binary, it is a spectrum. Many are at either end if the attraction scale and identify as heterosexual and homosexual. Some are in the middle and are happy fancying both males and females. Others generally fancy males or females but have on some occasions found specific members or types of the other sex attractive.

And can be fluid over a lifetime.

I think it's innate but whatever. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Where it gets out of hand is where it shifts from 'your sexuality is a choice' to 'your sexuality must be fixed to what I say it ought to be to match my political views, so even though you're exclusively homosexual, woman provide heterosexual sex in order to provide caring service to a male- if you don't enjoy it then you're not trying hard enough and it's not about you anyway'.

Because that's just plain weird and unpleasant in its disrespect for others.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/11/2021 21:26

At this juncture, I think it may be valuable to bring up the concept of "febfems". That stands for female-exclusive bisexual female, as in bisexual women who choose to exclusively pursue relationships with women.

However, other women are exclusively same-sex attracted or exclusively opposite-sex attracted.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 10/11/2021 21:31

That's an important concept, thank you Purgatory

CheeseMmmm · 10/11/2021 21:32

In a patriarchal heteronormative society there are interesting conversations to be had about what sexuality would look like in a society that was not.

That's been a discussion for years esp in Feminism and it's complex. Point is we can't know.

Why the diversion into innate or choice? It's a diversion surely. And given the current push of it's a choice therefore being exclusively same sex attracted is transphobic is clearly not a positive argument in any way apart from those who want to have sex with others who aren't interested due to they don't want to shag that sex.

CheeseMmmm · 10/11/2021 21:35

I find the multiple points about allying with and strategy really interesting.

Here on MN it's an anon chatboard and anyone can post. It's not organised, if there is a decided strategy no one has ever mentioned it to me!

Allying as well indicates one group working with another group in a formal or at least semi formal way.

Neither of those things make any sense when it's a pretty random bunch of strangers who happen to have similar views about something and talk as anon individual.

foxgoosefinch · 10/11/2021 21:45

But, @julieca, the entire point of my post to you was that only a couple of those points are actually healthcare needs at all. Lots are social care or jut simply nice things to have - not medical care. Lumping then together doesn’t make sense at all. Is the NHS obliged to provide friends? Hmm

Fair point about psychiatrists being medical doctors. The immature sexuality in terms of Freudian influence is from an actual experience of a friend on a locked mental health ward.

Whatever your friend said, that’s an idea speculatively floated by Freud in the early part of his career and abandoned in the second for an entirely different model. Freudian psychoanalysis is actually extremely accommodating of homosexuality and bisexuality, regarding bisexuality as the fundamental condition of the person. It’s widely misunderstood by laypeople, and has never ever been part of medical psychiatry, which has always set its face firmly against Freud — vehemently so. Interestingly, the only place psychoanalysis has ever really been made use of by the NHS is at the Tavistock, where it was starting to be largely phased out just as gender ideology was coming in.

Ironically, if they had had more psychoanalysts working in the gender specialism, all of their problems might never have got so bad.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/11/2021 21:57

Additionally, if sexuality was a choice, the young men who populate incel forums, bonding with other men by discussing how much they resent women, would be able to have sex with each other.

BloodinGutters · 10/11/2021 21:58

@foxgoosefinch

Have you ever read Alice Millers work on Freud?

(Very simplified run down from reading as a teen)

She basically said he was spot on in his early work, where he recognised that neurosis came from unresolved childhood trauma. But then he found out his friend and colleague was molesting his child and Freud did a 180 & instead attributed the root of neurosis to be children’s repressed wish to have sexual relationships with their parents, and that if only we could be free to acknowledge this without shame we would be free from our mental burdens.

Clearly his later stance (on this issue) is batshit, but I found the history interesting, although I have no idea how accurate it is.

She (was, pre death) a well published/well known (although controversial in her own way) psychoanalyst & author so I’d assume there would be serious legal challenges if she didn’t have evidence for her claims, and I’ve never heard of that happening. That said, I mostly read her work as teen/very early 20s, so I might not be a credible source on reliability of her historical claims. But it’s interesting.

foxgoosefinch · 10/11/2021 22:07

Yes, it’s the case that early on he was shocked by the widespread experience of sexual abuse in his female patients - the “seduction theory” as it’s called - and in the end couldn’t bring himself to believe that such abuse was widespread as his patients reported, because it would implicate so many important and “respectable” Viennese men - so he reworked it into his notion of childhood sexual development and fantasy (which is complex and not quite as objectionable as it sounds to modern readers).

I haven’t any particular wish to defend Freud, and I very much agree with many feminist criticisms of his work; but it’s a really complex body of work and can’t be completely jettisoned whatever you think of Freud the person. It’s really complex and nuanced on sexuality, too, much more so than all the other contemporary sexologists and medical doctors of the time (many of whom were responsible for pushing the infamous “inversion theory” about sex and sexuality which is the forerunner to today’s trans ideology). Freud would absolutely not have had any truck with trans Grin

But yes, it’s a sad facet of the society that Freud was working in that he uncovered all sorts of sexual abuses directed against women in what seemed like very proper middle-class Vienna. Sad

Stopthisnow · 10/11/2021 22:54

The argument that people should be allowed to do what they want so long as it doesn't hurt anyone is harder to win when some people have deeply held religious beliefs that having sex with someone of the same sex is literally the work of the devil.

I agree historically if one engaged in homosexual behaviour they were considered a sinner and punished for the behaviour, it was the behaviour that was traditionally punished, rather than being homosexual, or bisexual, as these categories were not thought about originally. Then when people started to categorise themselves according to their sexualities, homosexuals (and sometimes bisexuals) were persecuted.

I agree ‘born this way’ can lead to a kind of begrudging acceptance in some countries, in others it seems to make little difference. Moreover, it does lead to the idea that homosexuals have a kind of intersex condition. For example, one of the first gay men in mid 19th century to argue for public acceptance of gay men Karl Heinrich Ulrichs argued that gay men had a "A female psyche confined in a male body" and that they were a third sex called "urnings”. Then there was Magnus Hirschfeld who argued homosexuals were a type of hermaphrodite, in order to gain acceptance of gay men. In the late 1940’s gay men were given male hormones in order to try to make them attracted to women, all it did was make them seek more sex with other men, so they shifted to giving them female hormones to curb their sex drive. The point is it always leads to a ‘cure’ which inevitably involves some kind of ‘sex change’, which is what see in places like Iran, and now in other countries with gender ideology. So I don’t think it really does lead to real genuine acceptance at all, at best I think it leads to a superficial acceptance based on pity.

I'd like to see more on it too. Why is there a correlation between gender non-conformity and homosexuality? Not sensible shoes and a lack of makeup but actual female masculinity and male femininity? Why do we see this in the literal "only gay in the village", in countries with no gay representation? Is it learned behaviour? Who from? Are butch lesbians more homosexual than feminine ones, is there a difference physically or psychologically?

These things can be explained in ways other than them being innate. From a developmental point of view one could say that early positive experiences, conditioning (including eroticising things not out of choice), socialisation and the prevailing culture can influence the development of personality, likes, dislikes etc., and how one views one’s self. Personality development can also influence how comfortable one is with conformity. Autism can also impact how comfortable one is with conformity.

I think it is also important to remember that the focus is usually on gay men. In ancient societies, women were just considered property, so no thought at all were given to whether they were attracted to men or not, they were treated the same as any other woman. For men it has always been different. For example, in ancient Rome men could have sex with men without stigma, as long the man doing the penetrating was of a higher social rank than the man he was penetrating, the stigma was placed entirely on the man being penetrated. There are other societies too where male homosexual behaviour was widespread and accepted, as long as it was performed under certain circumstances where social hierarchies were preserved. In other cultures men were placed in a third category, where men could have sex with them and still be considered heterosexual, e.g. ladyboys, Hijra etc.

Obviously the next question is "does it matter? " or even "should it matter?" but I personally would like to know if I really was born this way, and if I wasn't, I'd like to know what caused it, even if I'd never change anything.

Arguing that we can't help it works better than arguing we should do as we please.

I don’t think it should matter, I also think that looking for a cause indicates that there is a problem that needs to be solved, and I don’t think there is a problem that needs to be solved. I think sometimes an argument may be harder but works out better in the long run, as it doesn’t lead to ‘cures’, it leads to true acceptance, rather than begrudging superficial acceptance based on pity.

foxgoosefinch · 10/11/2021 23:21

Agree with you @Stopthisnow - the identity model of sexuality has never been the only one out there. In our current moment, innate identity theories of sexual orientation are very dominant; but this was not always the case (and there were a variety of competing positions on this well up until the late 90s). Innate identity theories have always been more popular in US civil rights movements, partly because of the way the Constitution positions the civil subject and bestows rights. In Europe and elsewhere, models of sexuality and sexual orientation were often much more fluid, universalist, behavioural, or choice based; or rooted in the idea of sexual drives and experiences rather than identity.

Same goes for trans, too - in the U.K. and Europe, transsexualism tended to be thought of as a practice related to trauma or sexual fetishism, to be treated with psychoanalysis and therapy - whereas in the US where they pioneered surgical techniques in places like the Johns Hopkins clinic, they still made use of therapy but this was replaced in the US by a predominantly surgery based, identity based model which then took root here from the 1980s onwards.

The US model of identity politics really has colonised the Anglosphere now though - probably accelerated by social media because younger people don’t really perceive as much difference now between US and UK cultures.

LobsterNapkin · 11/11/2021 02:45

I don't understand people making arguments that we have to say homosexuality is innate because it's a useful argument.

It's a scientific/sociological/psychological, even historical question, and the truth of the matter, whatever it is, does not depend on what we think will best achieve our social engineering goals.

And it's just so dangerous, and such a bad habit in terms of thinking clearly and seriously about things. If we justify that, we can accept any convenient "facts" so long as they make people behave the way we think they should. You could use this to justify the whole born in the wrong body narrative, for example, on the grounds that it helps the simple public understand a more complex idea that gets them to the right place. At that point, even if you disagree with the goal, there is no scope to argue that the narrative is inaccurate. You've given that ground away.

And besides that - do people believe in their goal, or not? Because if it's true, the facts, the real facts, will support that. Maybe it won't give you a nice little slogan, but we can see what sort of damage happens when you take those slogans out of the context you want them to be used in, and treat them as if they have some real content behind them.

CheeseMmmm · 11/11/2021 02:48

I don't really understand why this conversation has taken this turn.

It's a total side track.

LobsterNapkin · 11/11/2021 02:56

@bordermidgebite

The science seems to suggest it ( sexuality) is innate

I can't remember all I read up but one piece of evidence for this is that the proportion of the population who are gay is constant through different times and cultures , even very homophobic cultures

It can be objectively measured I believe ( possibly through sub conscious things such as eyes widening )

This contrasts strongly with trans identifying people where rates are very culture dependent

I remember being told that as a teenager. It's not true though, there are societies with no homosexuality at all, as far as anyone can tell, and even no concept of it. As well as some where a certain amount of homosexual activity is complexly ubiquitous, at least among men.

But there is reason to be suspicious about claims like this even on the face of them. It's not a simple thing even in a modern society to decide who we count as gay or lesbian for research purposes. Is it people who self identify? People who have actually had sex, even once, with a person of the same sex? Or within the last year? These are real problems researchers have and they have to make decisions in order to compile statistics, and it's harder in cultures that don't define homosexuality the way we do in the west. As many past cultures did, and many also still expected people to marry and have families whatever they liked to do in their free time.

So comparing different cultures, including those from the past where we can't even ask people and have to rely on written evidence that was not intended to help future sex researchers, is pretty fraught.

LobsterNapkin · 11/11/2021 03:02

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Additionally, if sexuality was a choice, the young men who populate incel forums, bonding with other men by discussing how much they resent women, would be able to have sex with each other.
There's a difference between something being innate, and it being a choice. It could be culturally constructed, or influenced by individual experiences in formative periods of life.

I tend to think that probably, all these things play a part.

While a society or culture might be able to make a decision to try and influence some of these elements on a culture-wide level, none of them would really be a choice by individuals.

BloodinGutters · 11/11/2021 07:28

@CheeseMmmm

I don't really understand why this conversation has taken this turn.

It's a total side track.

It is interesting.

But it’s still out of line to ask someone how long they’ve been a lesbian for. Like they are a museum exhibit or freak show or like it’s a new hobby or religion they’ve taken up.

No one goes around asking people how long they’ve been heterosexual for.

So, back to the tone of this board.

I’d say they bbc leaving stonewall diversity champion scheme and the workplace equality index will have a great impact on the tone hereGrin

Helleofabore · 11/11/2021 07:54

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Additionally, if sexuality was a choice, the young men who populate incel forums, bonding with other men by discussing how much they resent women, would be able to have sex with each other.
Well…. Let me introduce you to TRANSMAXXIng!!!

Even that is now being done. That incels are transitioning because they feel they have a better chance at getting sex if they are seen as a woman.

I know that many regulars already know of this group as one popped on to educate us all last year…

bordermidgebite · 11/11/2021 08:17

I will repeat what I said uothread

The measureable proportion of homosexuality is culture independent

What does change with culture is the likelihood of being out, of having a homosexual relationship, of transitioning to make yourself culturaly acceptable

FlyingOink · 11/11/2021 09:22

@CheeseMmmm

I don't really understand why this conversation has taken this turn.

It's a total side track.

My fault, I guess. Although it's been very interesting (to me anyway).
julieca · 11/11/2021 09:25

@foxgoosefinch its not about my friends ideas, She was told on a locked mental health ward that her lesbianism was an immature sexuality.

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