Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

NotBadConsidering excellent post. This forum really is at the centre of evidence based analysis. MN hq should be proud of it.

So you are ridiculed when you make some ridiculous points but this should be ignored because you usually agree with what has been posted?

[quote julieca]@BloodinGutters I never claimed ridicule was trauma.
But it is unpleasant to be on the receiving end.
You are all so convinced you are right about every single detail that you ridicule me who broadly agrees with you, but disagrees over some points. Only people who 100% agree are welcome here.[/quote]
I’ve been ridiculed tones here.

(Back in the day, but shhhh, don’t tell the MN overlords that)

It was a great learning experience.

Made me realise when I was letting emotions get in the way of listening to logic in some cases.

Made me re-examine my thought processes on others, and find not only did I still think I was correct, but that I was then more able to argue such calmly in rl without becoming emotional. And it’s paid off/paying off with schools etc changing to agree.

Being ridiculed on thought processes that impact others lives is very different from being ridiculed about something arbitrary. The latter has benefit when logic fails, imho.

And even if it didn’t, laughter as a response to the absurd is a healthy coping mechanism. Policing women about that is just more female socialisation.

So just, NO.

*former. Fuck see there’s my adhd brain playing up.

I never say an individual is racist or homophobic, but that something they said or did is.
I wonder if I know you from facebook? I am sure I have come across the argument that comparing womanface to blackface is not racist based on music hall and variety acts. I still don't buy your argument. Sure you know more about every specific things, just as I know more about very specific things. But I didn't ridicule anyone who knew nothing about Sheila Jefreys and others views around sexuality not being innate.
I find it surprising that anyone is defending ridicule of someone disagreeing with them.
And then you all deny that the tone hear chases people away.

So you are ridiculed when you make some ridiculous points but this should be ignored because you usually agree with what has been posted?

That seems to cover it.

@BloodinGutters no not ridiculing people politely and in good faith discussing something with you is not female socialisation. Its just being a decent person.

@TimOTey The main points I have made is that lesbians do have specific needs in terms of the ways health and social care are delivered. And that many feminists do not agree that sexuality is innate. Both of which I was ridiculed for.
In reality there have been serious feminist books and research written about both of these issues.

Its just being a decent person.

Do you mean #bekind?

No I do not mean be kind.

That's not true, Julieca. Disagreement is welcome. Your points are not robust and so they are argued against and you don't seem to have anything else to add to defend the point.

This enclave of social media has debated the issues amongst ourselves at length. It has made us tenacious.

I suppose that having ridiculous points dismantled probably does feel like ridicule when you are on the receiving end of it for post after post.

We are not perfect but I was always aware that if anyone did say anything that seemed transphobic, posters pointed it out. This board is one of the best forums for intelligent debate and information. It is our board and at times it can be hard hitting, but it is about women's rights and infringements of those rights is being discussed.

The board has improved with age, like a good wine

You've made many more points than that juileca. Robust debate is not ridicule. Unless we're going to the place of redefining the meaning of words. In which case, anything can mean anything.

No I do not mean be kind.

Do you mean #nodebate?

@julieca

Policing women laughing as a coping mechanism is appealing to female socialisation.

And asking someone how long they have been a lesbian is not polite or in good faith.

Equally discussion requires give and take, listening and responding. Not a brick wall and bloody stumps at the top of our necks.

Or flouncing followed by reverse flouncing.

Okay I am hiding this thread.
A few of you discuss this in good faith. The rest simply ridicule and claim I have said things I haven't. There is zero point to this.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria I have zero issue with my posts being disagreed with. My issue is with ridicule which you have also indulged in. That is not disagreeing robustly. It is just being unpleasant for the sake of it.

@foxgoosefinch

And Robin, with all respect, you are upset about the comments about your clothes. I would argue that this is a very female experience. Everyone comments on women’s clothes all the fcking time. In the office, among “friends”. Women’s clothes will be criticised in newspapers. Nasty comments about clothes have probably been directed at everyone here. But we don’t whine about it.*

I'm at the idea that commenting on women's clothes is the fault of GC feminists. As others have said, @RobinMoiraWhite, it's been something that everyone has felt it fine to do about women for millennia. Remember how every public female figure gets criticised for her clothes? Cherie Blair, Theresa May, Samantha Cameron, Angela Merkel, ad infinitum? Remember those years of women pointing out that the media only comment on what women are wearing and not political or powerful men? There are satire accounts dedicated to this which pretend to discuss male politicians' clothes as if they were women.

It's a fact of life for women - young women, middle aged women, older women. My students think it's okay to comment on my dress sense in feedback forms or make comments about the style of my hair. (Remember when women at the bar weren't allowed to show an inch of hair around the wig? Surely you have an old copy of Glanville Williams lying about somewhere?)

No, I wasn't upset at all. Plainly I have had some very helpful friends on my personal journey, the next step on which will be next week when I will be meeting the colourist as well as the stylist for the first time on the reccomendation of those friends. Nothing exciting, just a little gentle defence against the incoming tide of time. Sigh!

I just enjoy watching the tensions between 'as a feminist how folk dress doesnt matter' and 'Ooo NO, I wouldnt have worn that'.

Winter is on the way and the suede boots are standing ready!

That's a shame that you feel like that, Julia. Also, well, then, retort in ridicule; answer back; stand by your statements and expand your argument.

You feeling ridiculed is not the same as me picking on you. Your arguments have a wobbly foundation, and that is why you are feeling so uncomfortable. That's not my fault.

No complaint was made. You dont understand the times it sounds like. I am older than you

How do you know how old I am and what has that to do with the tone of this board?

And even if you were older, what has that got to do with anything? Why are you allowed to ridicule someone about their age, but nobody is allowed to ridicule you back?

Only people who 100% agree are welcome here.

I have never felt that. I disagree with much that is posted here, but keep coming back, and sometimes a particularly good post changes my mind on some point or other (if you're allowed to admit that on the internet).

I think it's always instructive when people talk about what they enjoy. Have a nice day.

@julieca

I never say an individual is racist or homophobic, but that something they said or did is. I wonder if I know you from facebook? I am sure I have come across the argument that comparing womanface to blackface is not racist based on music hall and variety acts. I still don't buy your argument. Sure you know more about every specific things, just as I know more about very specific things. But I didn't ridicule anyone who knew nothing about Sheila Jefreys and others views around sexuality not being innate. I find it surprising that anyone is defending ridicule of someone disagreeing with them. And then you all deny that the tone hear chases people away.

Julie, you really don’t know me from Facebook. And what on earth is this about Sheila Jeffries? I teach Shelia Jeffries’ work ffs, and last night posted a long post about non-innate models of sexuality. You really have o get your posters right if you want to claim they disagree with you!

You know, one of the reasons I’m an academic is that at school and university and everywhere else, when people challenged my opinions and ideas, instead of knee-jerk defending them, I said - “really? Tell me where I can read more about this”. Sometimes people do know more on a subject, and that’s okay. There are a lot of subjects I don’t know about, so when others post about them, I keep quiet and let them speak, and then I use what they say to go and find out more about the topic.

So far, for example, you’ve said posters are racist for discussing black face and drag together or saying that abolition and women’s suffrage were connected; and then shortly after, dismissed the writing of actual black women writers who were slaves as them not having the right language to articulate their oppression. Women who were slaves or the children of slaves, the first blank women lawyers, activists and writers in the US.

Now some of my students think for example the same about Frederick Douglass, that he is merely a mouthpiece for white abolitionist discourse, because they can’t really conceive of the idea that he actually wrote his books himself, as a black man, and he didn’t really understand the arguments he was making because he didn’t fully understand his own oppression. What you said was exactly equivalent to that, yet I didn’t call you racist, did I?

I really don’t think it’s right to say you aren’t getting engaged with, then complain you don’t like the tone of the engagement. Mild sarcasm is not verbal abuse. And a lot of the tone here, as elsewhere on MN, is pretty mild compared to Twitter or any male-dominated forum, by a very long way.

@foxgoosefinch

I actually thought @julieca had a great point when she said you knew more about ‘every specific subject’.

Beautiful Freudian slip given the context.

Sorry, I'm still spluttering at 'Have you been a lesbian for a long time?' I know the thread has moved on, but jaysus.

Nice to see you return, Robin!

I just enjoy watching the tensions between 'as a feminist how folk dress doesnt matter' and 'Ooo NO, I wouldnt have worn that'.

You see, this is exactly what we are taking about. No GC feminist I’ve ever seen says “as a feminist how folk dress doesn’t matter” (especially with the cutesy use of “folk” there). But you have intentionally misrepresented “feminism” by making up a statement from thin air. Of course how people dress matters to feminism. That’s why GC feminism is all about critiquing the social performances of gender and dress, and has from the start pointed out that dress is part of the public existence of women. Why, on these boards and all across MN we are right now currently discussing drag, binders, men who wear the clothes associated with small girls and call it performance art, high heels, and all sorts of other things.

So respectfully, enjoy your boots and hairdo, but your snide tone is exactly what we’re taking about - and nevertheless, nobody’s saying you shouldn’t post, in whatever tone you like!