Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

[quote BloodinGutters]@foxgoosefinch

I actually thought @julieca had a great point when she said you knew more about ‘every specific subject’.

Beautiful Freudian slip given the context.[/quote]
Hahaha 🤣 I just only comment on things I know about - I keep quiet where I don’t 😂

@NotBadConsidering superb post. I am always in awe of the knowledge and intelligence of the regular posters here.

@FloralBunting

Sorry, I'm still spluttering at 'Have you been a lesbian for a long time?' I know the thread has moved on, but jaysus.

Me too.

I thought I was unshockable buy fuck!!

My view is that many mothers (it is mumsnet after all) are quite frankly pretty knackered from the day to day effects of dealing with family, work, kids and a pandemic.

So the question really should be 'why aren't mothers entitled to a sexuality'? Of whatever shape, colour or form they fancy?

Or has it suddenly become the realm of teens only?

I think as feminists it is of high importance we discussed suede boots in winter.

I mean #wetfeetwhy ???

Don’t feet deserve to be liberated from sogginess while walking caninehumans?

@FloralBunting

Sorry, I'm still spluttering at 'Have you been a lesbian for a long time?' I know the thread has moved on, but jaysus.

I actually thought that people were quite kind in how they dealt with that.

I found it rather opened up in my mind, a lot of questions about the poster.

The “have you been a lesbian long” is one of the most snidest, sneering patronising comments I’ve seen in a long while, especially from the poster who feels so ridiculed, and patronised they have left the thread….twice. This has been a great thread, very very interesting comments and certainly informative in lots of places. I would just add be very very careful of suede boots in the winter, they are prone to water marks and I’ve never found a pair with a decent grip, so definitely score your soles.

“littlbrowndog
Awesome post notbadconsidering”

Yes

@TimOTey

No I do not mean be kind.

Do you mean #nodebate?

This is an example to me of a type of argument that should be avoided. No, saying that there are parameters for good debate is neither telling people to be nice nor is it telling them to shut up.

Robust debate is one thing, but twisting what people say deliberately is another.

Robust debate depends on a certain kind of honesty in the process, and part of that is a real effort to understand what others mean even if they don't express it perfectly. It means not assuming people have nefarious motives, or mean something they didn't say.

We've all seen how certain people can come in and use manipulative debate techniques, but it also happens here on the other side from time to time. Whether on purpose or because some people don't realize that is what they are doing.

The difference is that in the latter case, it's often let pass, and even supported by others. Because they are on the right side, I guess.

I actually thought that people were quite kind in how they dealt with that.
Regular posters here are often way too kind and patient imo. Compared to other forums and social media this is a bastion of calmness, even when posters, this board and the entirity of MN are being insulted.

To defend @julieca I actually didn’t find her tone snide in that, and not only am I not offended but i think it’s perfectly fine question, I think it’s perfectly okay to debate questions of the innate dad of sexual orientation, gay people don’t all think the same about that as I think several posters like @LobsterNapkin eloquently posted!

I am a bit delighted at the idea that after a certain amount of time of lesbianing you qualify as an official proper lesbian with proper lesbian opinions, though I am sure there are posters on mn who’ve clocked in more time than me 😂

*innate dad? Innateness!

Glad you weren’t offended Fox and it prompted some fantastic discussion afterwards too. Which I think goes to show that when posters disagree and maybe there is a clash it can result in new conversations. In that spirit definitely thanks to Julia too for coming back into the ring. It’s been a great read.

@foxgoosefinch

To defend *@julieca I actually didn’t find her tone snide in that, and not only am I not offended but i think it’s perfectly fine question, I think it’s perfectly okay to debate questions of the innate dad of sexual orientation, gay people don’t all think the same about that as I think several posters like @LobsterNapkin* eloquently posted!

I am a bit delighted at the idea that after a certain amount of time of lesbianing you qualify as an official proper lesbian with proper lesbian opinions, though I am sure there are posters on mn who’ve clocked in more time than me 😂

I think it would be important to establish what actual lesbianing counts as the time on the clock, fox

I mean do I count the active sex only, does snogging count? Flirting? Time spent with a butch haircut? (I've really slipped in that one since lockdown)...

The amount of people who seem to feel entitled to police my sexual orientation and every other homosexual female's and decide what we feel, what counts and what doesn't, who we ought to have sex with, what training we ought to have, our social responsibilities involved in making decisions around access to our vagina (and overcoming any basic social common sense like no, I don't fancy that person, and anyone not interested in me and my experience in this sexual encounter and thinks the most I should dare to expect from them is that I 'cope' with their penis is someone to run a million miles from )....

Tis bloody baffling.

Do gay men get followed around and supervised like this? What qualifications do you need to start harassing and supervising a homosexual woman and policing her vagina access properly? Is there training involved? A badge?

Up to this point I've just been regarding all this with eyebrows raised as some people just having waaaay too much time on their hands and having major issues with boundaries, and gone on lesbianing my way under the impression it was my body and my life and everyone else needed to take a running jump. Is this now a civil offense or something? Am I going to get a vagina ticket? Points on my lesbian licence?

You'll need to address those questions to the Board of Lesbians, Artichoke. As with so many things, I think you'll find that would be an ecumenical matter.

@ArabellaScott

You'll need to address those questions to the Board of Lesbians, Artichoke. As with so many things, I think you'll find that would be an ecumenical matter.

Really?

Bugger. And I just emailed my local police commissioner too.

Robust debate depends on a certain kind of honesty in the process, and part of that is a real effort to understand what others mean even if they don't express it perfectly. It means not assuming people have nefarious motives, or mean something they didn't say.

Yes! Definitely this. There's also a bit of vulnerability involved in sharing one's real opinions, even on an anonymous messageboard, and having one's arse handed to them when those honestly-held opinions turn out to be built on sand.
Without honesty and an appreciation that sometimes the delivery obscures the intent, we can't move forward.
Personally I am happy to be proved wrong, I'm happy to have my arse handed to me and I'm happy be look daft too. If I wasn't challenged on this board I wouldn't bother with it. Plenty of opportunities for carefully worded non-statements and non-opinions elsewhere in life.

I think it would be important to establish what actual lesbianing counts as the time on the clock

This is really worrying. I've been single for a while, will I be demoted?
If it helps, I am known as "senior lesbian" at work

I was a lesbian five times in 1993.

Have I been a lesbian since 1993?

It sure is a conundrum. I'll ask DH what he thinks.

Who cares if people don’t like the tone? There’s too much shit to do
to care about people’s sensitivities. Until the medical profession stop irrevocably harming children with medications that will impact them for the rest of their lives, people can moan all they like but can do so
in the knowledge they will be roundly ignored because no one gives a fuck about your opinion on “tone

👏👏👏👏👏👏
Spot on.

@RepentMotherfucker

I was a lesbian five times in 1993.

Have I been a lesbian since 1993?

It sure is a conundrum. I'll ask DH what he thinks.

RepentMotherfucker

Were you heteroflexible?

(Learned this from the thread of that ad from NY in 2017 the was spoofed up as John Lewis's Christmas ad 2021. I didn't really agree that it was a good 'spoof' but it was a disturbing ad if it ever played in prime time with its kink and pup play etc.)

Sorry.... that should be 'are you heteroflexible', shouldn't it?

Granted Fox, it led to some interesting discussion, but I think it's quite an astonishing thing to say when someone then goes on to be a bit precious about language, tone and alliances.

I've been a lesbian for a number of decades meself. and I'm not sure I've fully qualified yet.

@FloralBunting

Granted Fox, it led to some interesting discussion, but I think it's quite an astonishing thing to say when someone then goes on to be a bit precious about language, tone and alliances.

I've been a lesbian for a number of decades meself. and I'm not sure I've fully qualified yet.

It seems like something said by Hyacinth Bucket with her nose held.

@Helleofabore

Sorry.... that should be 'are you heteroflexible', shouldn't it?

She certainly was