Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

[quote julieca]@foxgoosefinch its not about my friends ideas, She was told on a locked mental health ward that her lesbianism was an immature sexuality.[/quote]
What has this got to do with the actual tone of this board?

You are now talking about a random interaction that you weren't even witness to. When you put a complaint in to the ward about the comment, what happened as a result?

No complaint was made. You dont understand the times it sounds like. I am older than you. I know two women who were put on mental health wards only because they were a lesbian.
And every other thread on MN wanders.

The bottom line, to me, as to why people don’t like the “tone” here is because regulars actually know what they’re talking about. You can’t idle along and post nonsense about how wonderful puberty blockers are, or misrepresent the Equality Act, or claim something is what it isn’t or vice versa because you will be told in no uncertain terms how wrong you are. People generally don’t like that. Tough.

This forum is probably the most knowledgeable forum on these matters in the world. Nothing gets past people here. There’s not an incident that can’t be recalled. Not a quote that someone can’t place. Not a TRA on Twitter whose history can’t be explained. I’ve spoken to medical colleagues about puberty blockers who should be embarrassed by their lack of knowledge in comparison to non-medical posters here. Most people have no idea who Johanna Olson-Kennedy, Polly Carmichael, Annalou de Vries, Thomas Steensma, Diane Erensaft etc etc are, but post it here and guaranteed a regular will be able to pull out a quote or history of them, or an analysis of their work, at the drop of a hat. The “tone” is one of “brook no nonsense”. I’ve posted before how annoyed I am with Justine that she isn’t more proud of this particular forum and isn’t shouting about it more. This forum helped Keira Bell directly. Regardless of the subsequent appeal outcome, it helped a major challenge in court. Many other people cases have thanked this forum too. It has led me to be directly active in real life. These are genuine real life social impacts of posting here.

Who cares if people don’t like the tone? There’s too much shit to do to care about people’s sensitivities. Until the medical profession stop irrevocably harming children with medications that will impact them for the rest of their lives, people can moan all they like but can do so in the knowledge they will be roundly ignored because no one gives a fuck about your opinion on “tone” .

No people dont like the ridicule.

Yes. Absolutely @NotBadConsidering.

As on the “cis” thread, posters come on with a bit of knowledge or an opinion or some inaccurate ideas, all tooled up to patronise the mummies about “complex biology” and “spectrums” or whatever; and they get their poorly-informed arses handed to them on a no-nonsense plate by intelligent, expert women who know this stuff inside out — and that’s normally when the complaints come out about “tone” and “being aggressive” and so on.

On the cis thread a poster came on with a patronising tone of “my love” and “you need to take a nap”; and as soon as their holey old points were roundly challenged, they were complaining about being patronised! The hypocrisy is sometimes breathtaking — though not surprising.

And we should absolutely be celebrating the knowledge and articulacy here, which honestly is far and away the best discussion board on the internet.

On the cis thread a poster came on with a patronising tone of “my love” and “you need to take a nap”; and as soon as their holey old points were roundly challenged, they were complaining about being patronised! The hypocrisy is sometimes breathtaking — though not surprising.

There has also been a poster who posted on this thread and has posted on the AIBU Lush binder thread that people opposing Lush’s involvement should educate ourselves. Numerous times. Yet has not provided one shred of evidence to support their point of view. Only anecdotes.

No awareness of how very hypocritical their posts are. How their arguments lack any substance outside of emotional manipulation. We know this poster responds to emotional manipulation because they also told us here how horrible we were that we didn’t respond with kindness at someone telling us they cried at reading MN FWR threads.

That seems to be all some posters have - emotional input. It must be exhausting to have to keep supporting arguments that way without solid foundations of facts to support them.

EDUCATE YOURSELF comes across a lot like REPENT MOTHERFUCKER

@BloodinGutters

EDUCATE YOURSELF comes across a lot like REPENT MOTHERFUCKER

I did mention that on the other thread.

It is exactly the same call to action.

And TWAW no debate comes across as "don't believe your own eyes just stupid vagina haver, a woman is anyone I say it is and you don't get a say"

Awesome post notbadconsidering

Sorry @Helleofabore

I hadn’t noticed.

It’s just such a juvenile scream isn’t it.

No people dont like the ridicule.

Have you been on the AIBU board?

Avoiding ridicule is easy, don't post ridiculous stuff.

That seems to be all some posters have - emotional input. It must be exhausting to have to keep supporting arguments that way without solid foundations of facts to support them.

I find it a bit patronising. It smacks of "look, I'm describing emotions here, you women know all about emotions and all that fluffy shit". Posters get exasperated when women won't perform all that emotional labour and #bekind because it's all they expect.

Definitely a case for #notyourmumsnet.

@334bu Yep AIBU is a friendlier board than this one.

334bu Yep AIBU is a friendlier board than this one.

Sure it is ...

Yep never been ridiculed there.

I don't think being friendly is really the purpose of this board. I don't always like what's said or the way it's said - and I've been on the wrong end of a recipe exchange so I do know how it feels - but I didn't come here looking for friendliness, I came because I wanted to understand what was going on.

The fact that there's a lot of name changing also means there isn't much opportunity to build up a friendly relationship with anyone but that's hardly the fault of the posters concerned.

Notbad - all of this and I would add the crowdfunding for women under pressure fighting genderism such as Jo Phoenix and Maya and the support for Kathleen Stock. I get sent all kinds of stuff and I just tell people "go to MN feminism and save yourselves some work, because its all on there"
And *Floisme" agreed about not coming to a forum for friendship, though often I do feel solidarity from other posters just from the comments and the humour.

@NotBadConsidering

The bottom line, to me, as to why people don’t like the “tone” here is because regulars actually know what they’re talking about. You can’t idle along and post nonsense about how wonderful puberty blockers are, or misrepresent the Equality Act, or claim something is what it isn’t or vice versa because you will be told in no uncertain terms how wrong you are. People generally don’t like that. Tough.

This forum is probably the most knowledgeable forum on these matters in the world. Nothing gets past people here. There’s not an incident that can’t be recalled. Not a quote that someone can’t place. Not a TRA on Twitter whose history can’t be explained. I’ve spoken to medical colleagues about puberty blockers who should be embarrassed by their lack of knowledge in comparison to non-medical posters here. Most people have no idea who Johanna Olson-Kennedy, Polly Carmichael, Annalou de Vries, Thomas Steensma, Diane Erensaft etc etc are, but post it here and guaranteed a regular will be able to pull out a quote or history of them, or an analysis of their work, at the drop of a hat. The “tone” is one of “brook no nonsense”. I’ve posted before how annoyed I am with Justine that she isn’t more proud of this particular forum and isn’t shouting about it more. This forum helped Keira Bell directly. Regardless of the subsequent appeal outcome, it helped a major challenge in court. Many other people cases have thanked this forum too. It has led me to be directly active in real life. These are genuine real life social impacts of posting here.

Who cares if people don’t like the tone? There’s too much shit to do to care about people’s sensitivities. Until the medical profession stop irrevocably harming children with medications that will impact them for the rest of their lives, people can moan all they like but can do so in the knowledge they will be roundly ignored because no one gives a fuck about your opinion on “tone” .

hear, fucking hear.

Brilliant post NotBadConsidering

Since when was ridicule a trauma.

It’s the same logic as thoughts= literal violence

So people laugh at precious or stupid points. So the fuck what?

A great deal of satire is used here to make a point when logic is clearly going over some people’s heads. I’ve been on the receiving end, it’s not a bad thing. I normally end up thinking I looked like a muppet too. Sometimes I reflect and learn something. Sometimes I think the poster is a dick head.

None of it ‘chases anyone away’. Adults don’t need their hands held and patted on the head because differing views upset them.

Like pp said there’s lots of name changing here, for many reasons. Some avoid posting personal details, with good reason. So it’s not like most of us are besties in rl, I rarely remember enough about posters to realise I’m discussing things on different threads with them. It’s just anonymous names on a board. This isn’t the cool kids table in mean girls that we are excluding you from because you wore pink on the wrong day of the week. Sometimes some of us catch onto a running joke (rarely me), sometimes others look stupid (most definitely sometimes me). It’s not an organised plan to hurt anyones feelz.

If posters can’t cope looking like a fool sometimes they are in the wrong place. I’m sure we have all been the numpty of at least one thread here at some point. Being the smartest person in the room just means that person never learns from others, so imho bring on the ridicule if reasonable explanations go over heads.

Laughing at the absurd is a necessary coping mechanism and women shouldn’t be silenced from using that when stuck in this god awful surreal situation.

Laughing women is the worst thing ever!
Reminds me of these charming individuals who protested a WPUK meeting about women's situation in prisons.
mobile.twitter.com/thewomencov/status/1453511002377670661

Oh and as a mini me rail-

About being besties in rl:

I want to make it clear I DO NOT want to be besties with any of you in rl.

I am trying very very hard to avoid the rl besties I have.

I work very hard at being anti social and yet they still stuck around …..

Any chance you lot can have a word with them and tell them how unlikable I am??

I really want to keep my time for my caninehumans and church of Patti Smith, I just don’t have time for people who want to talk to me.

Even when I talk loudly about GC issues they still agree with me & stick around. It’s like everything I say is golden. Will they never learn?

Anyone had this problem? How do I go about fixing it? I’m really very attached to my fav hobby of lonerism and just don’t feel I should compromise that for people who persist in caring about me, despite my tone.

@BloodinGutters I never claimed ridicule was trauma.
But it is unpleasant to be on the receiving end.
You are all so convinced you are right about every single detail that you ridicule me who broadly agrees with you, but disagrees over some points. Only people who 100% agree are welcome here.

But Julie, you are the one who keeps telling people they are racist and homophobic, even when they know more than you do about some things. You can’t really go about accusing other posters of racism or homophobia, then complain you don’t like a bit of ridicule…?