Man in women's loos - did o overreact?

[MakeTeaNotWar]

Went to a live music venue last night. In a very woke seaside town on the south coast for context. At the end of the night, I popped to the loo before leaving for home. As so often happens, the queue for ladies was lengthy, no real queue for the gents.

I joined the queue and noticed the person in front of me wasn't a man just keeping his partner company while she waited as I first thought, but a man waiting to use the toilet. He was not a trans woman, he was a man and a drunk one at that.

I told him he was in the wrong queue and pointed to the gents. He said he wanted to use these toilets. I asked why, he said they are gender neutral so he can. (I don't know if they are - they probably are as they had a multitude of arrows on the door.)

I said I am a woman needing to use the woman's facilities and I would do so, ahead of him.

The queue of women turned on me and said I couldn't block him, repeating these are gender neutral toilets. I said I cannot use a urinal and indeed went in front of him to use the loo first. When I had finished, I called the woman behind him to come forward and use the loo, which she did.

The other women very cross with me for blocking him and asserted he was perfectly entitled to use these toilets.

Did I do the wrong thing? I've thought about contacting the venue to understand what their loo provision is and asking was it right to have a man in the ladies (or are they gender neutral? Can anyone use the "gents")?

Thanks for reading long post

Ok I am going to send this simple email to the venue in the first instance asking a direct question and move from there - is that reasonable?

Good morning

Please can you detail what the toilet facilities are at Woke Venue in terms of single and mixed sex facilities, how many urinals and cubicles are available to each sex?

Sounds good maketeanotwar

The men benefit either way. They get to perv in womens toilets, demand to use womens toilets, abolish safe spaces, go into womens loos to taunt and humiliate women or even just to use cleaner spaces.
And its really no redress to say women can go into the mens. They'd love that and it would be even more dangerous. 'Wanna see my dick, love"

If the mens' toilets were men's and the womens were 'gender neutral' I'd be having strong words with the organisers and asking where the womens toilets were? (as required by law) Anyhow good for you OP.

I've had this problem going out in Brighton, it's very annoying. Men want a sticker and a lollypop for being so brave as to use the women's toilets generally. And some other women are all too happy to oblige.

Were both the 'ladies' and 'gents' gender neutral?

If supposedly so, I'd be interested to know if there were sanpro machines in the 'gents'... otherwise it's just virtue signalling really isn't it?

*sanpro machines and bins I meant to say!

@DogsWithJobs

Good for you. By your description the toilets don't meet the requirements for being gender neutral and the fact the men had their own toilets is sex discrimination.

This needs to stop.

This.

Urinals aren't gender neutral and a couple of (almost certainly un-sittably filthy, and 100% without sanitary bins) cubicles does not equal an entire block of womens loos.

And dont worry OP, you highlighting the fact that the old men's loos was actually almost entirely urinals, rather than in a state able to be used by women, will have got some of those women thinking. Minds turn one click at a time.

I read somewhere once that boys and girls use the same toilets when they are very little e.g. nursery. Some think that if we didn't split the genders when kids are in primary school then behaviour in toilets would be fine - respectful etc ... They think the problems are caused by segregation. I kinda understand that. And I think there has been research to support this. The problem today is they just want to enforce gender neutral toilets on a population that has been used to separate toilets. I think if they want to do gender neutral toilets in society they need to do it gradually and start with the very young and instill good behaviours.

@FlyingOink

I've had this problem going out in Brighton, it's very annoying. Men want a sticker and a lollypop for being so brave as to use the women's toilets generally. And some other women are all too happy to oblige.

Quite. Which is using the audience and emotions of the experience for personal reasons. At what point does this become exploitation? What's the power differential involved - could female humans expect males to provide them with emotional support, praise and celebration in the gents?

I just want to pee. I do not wish to be used by someone else who sees me as a prop in their personal journey. I do not wish to be treated as though female humans are support animals. I would like those busy with their own personal agendas to be capable of some basic consideration for other people.

@Platax

If they were gender neutral then you had no right whatsoever to ban someone from them.

Bollocks to that!

Did you actually read the OP?

Man in queue to women's loos "because he wanted to" despite there being no queue to the other loos that contained urinals!

How fucking obvious do some men have to be before some women will take notice?

And that's before you even start to consider the rest of OPs information about the set up inside those supposedly 'gender neutral' facilities. If a venue wants to go full on woke then it MUST do so in accordance with the law, healthy and safety, safeguarding regulations and best practice, etc. It will NEVER be good enough to simply add a sign to a door!

@Platax

If they were gender neutral then you had no right whatsoever to ban someone from them.

This

@jewel1968

I read somewhere once that boys and girls use the same toilets when they are very little e.g. nursery. Some think that if we didn't split the genders when kids are in primary school then behaviour in toilets would be fine - respectful etc ... They think the problems are caused by segregation. I kinda understand that. And I think there has been research to support this. The problem today is they just want to enforce gender neutral toilets on a population that has been used to separate toilets. I think if they want to do gender neutral toilets in society they need to do it gradually and start with the very young and instill good behaviours.

No, the problem is that after puberty, predation of some men becomes a safety issue.

Toilets are inherently a vulnerable space.

How fucking obvious do some men have to be before some women will take notice?

I think the answer to that came in the one a few weeks back about a man, (presenting entirely as a man) used a cubicle in a women's toilet with the door wide open. And there were still women making excuses and a 101 reasons why this was something women should enable.

The answer is that some women's boundaries are just beyond messed up. It's been a very exploitable weakness. Women need help with this.

@spotcheck did you not consider the realities of the situation? The lack of proper presentation of the facilities?

A sign on a door does not meet any of the legal criteria for 'gender neutral' facilities. It is simply virtue signalling and, at the very least, ignores the dignity of women in reference for a woke clap on the back!

There are clearly set out ways to make facilities gender neutral. Do you not think that people, men and women, have every right to expect those laws and guidlenes to be adhered to? Or do you just think that women should shut up and move over because summink summink ?

"spotcheck

Platax

If they were gender neutral then you had no right whatsoever to ban someone from them.

This"

So, if I were to stick a sign on your front door saying anyone can use the toilet in here that would be fine.
These toilets don't conform to building regs, you can't just stick a sign on a door and change the use of toilet facilities in a public building. This is a venue being a cheapskate. They want to be inclusive but are not willing to spend any money in it.

The restaurant I'm going to tomorrow has what are effectively gender neutral loos. One big room with cubicles for men down one side, cubicles for women down the other and wash hand basins in the middle. The cubicles aren't special and they look just look like any other cubicles in public loos.

OP, the situation you describe would have made me very uncomfortable. I'm usually capable of making a stand, but not sure what I would have done in your situation. Probably nothing.

@MakeTeaNotWar

Ok I am going to send this simple email to the venue in the first instance asking a direct question and move from there - is that reasonable?

Good morning

Please can you detail what the toilet facilities are at Woke Venue in terms of single and mixed sex facilities, how many urinals and cubicles are available to each sex?

Add which have sanitary bins in them

Hove, actually!

That would have made an interesting Christmas film

If he was queuing with his girlfriend to use the ladies' toilets (assuming he wasn't her carer), whilst the gents' was available, I really don't see what innocent explanation there could be. They might even have been intending to go into one cubicle together to get their 'thrills' - eeuw, grim.

Decent, respectful men know full well that the women's toilets aren't some magical secret wonder palace that they have to force their way in to, to grab their rightful share of all the fun: they're just mundane, functional facilities designed around the safety and dignity of one sex of people (excluding accompanied young children), whilst an equivalent facility exists nearby to provide the same for the other sex.

It really doesn't need to be any issue whatsoever, unless certain people (with whatever motives or desires, one would assume nefarious) deliberately decide to make it into one.

While I agree with you OP, I just can’t wrap my head around the fact that all those other women disagreed with you. Are you absolutely sure it was an actual male in the queue and not a transman? I’ve seen transmen with beards, voice surgery to have a deeper voice, tall, muscular etc and I would not know just by looking at them that they have no penis, but a vagina. I don’t understand too why an actual male would voluntarily stand in a queue for toilets when they could skip a queue? At the end of music events drunk men when faced with a queue tend to go outside and piss on a street corner/behind a dumpster.

It just sounds like we are missing something.

And its really no redress to say women can go into the mens. They'd love that and it would be even more dangerous. 'Wanna see my dick, love"

I also wonder what would be said if anything were to happen, akin to “what were you wearing?” : Where were you? In the gents? Well what did you expect might happen to you in there?

@spotcheck
@Platax
“If they were gender neutral then you had no right whatsoever to ban someone from them.

This”

For goodness’ sake. MIXED SEX. At least have the courtesy to own the argument you’re making.

References to “gender” are just inappropriate decorum. SEX.

MIXED SEX toilets or SINGLE SEX toilets. Which would you prefer?

How sad that women turned on you. We really need to stand together and help each other. The man was a creep.

@PlanDeRaccordement I promise you it was a pissed bloke who said he wanted to go there cos he could. He said there was more cubicles in the ladies then in the gents. I did hear another woman ask was it because he needed a shit 🙈