Man in women's loos - did o overreact?

[MakeTeaNotWar]

Went to a live music venue last night. In a very woke seaside town on the south coast for context. At the end of the night, I popped to the loo before leaving for home. As so often happens, the queue for ladies was lengthy, no real queue for the gents.

I joined the queue and noticed the person in front of me wasn't a man just keeping his partner company while she waited as I first thought, but a man waiting to use the toilet. He was not a trans woman, he was a man and a drunk one at that.

I told him he was in the wrong queue and pointed to the gents. He said he wanted to use these toilets. I asked why, he said they are gender neutral so he can. (I don't know if they are - they probably are as they had a multitude of arrows on the door.)

I said I am a woman needing to use the woman's facilities and I would do so, ahead of him.

The queue of women turned on me and said I couldn't block him, repeating these are gender neutral toilets. I said I cannot use a urinal and indeed went in front of him to use the loo first. When I had finished, I called the woman behind him to come forward and use the loo, which she did.

The other women very cross with me for blocking him and asserted he was perfectly entitled to use these toilets.

Did I do the wrong thing? I've thought about contacting the venue to understand what their loo provision is and asking was it right to have a man in the ladies (or are they gender neutral? Can anyone use the "gents")?

Thanks for reading long post

It's understandable, tho, that the general public interprets those categories as free-for-all mixed sex.

Well, why shouldn't they be? What sort of man is going to accept that some other men get to do something but they can't, just because that other man says he's "non-binary"?

Good luck drawing that dividing line between "normal boring males who have to behave" and "super-duper non-binary males who get to take the piss".

Apparently, there were 'issues' with gender-neutral loos.
No! Who'd have thought it?

What sort of man is going to accept that some other men get to do something but they can't, just because that other man says he's "non-binary"?
Well, when we're talking about access to the ladies loos I'm going to hazard a guess at every normal man I know, really.
I don't know any man who'd feel aggrieved at having to use the gents when some other arsehole is happy to bulldoze his way into the ladies?
Do you?

This is just going to shrink vulnerable/ marginalised women’s lives further.
Imagine a woman who is in an abusive relationship with a controlling man. If he knows other men are in the public toilets he may not allow her to use them or may insist on supervising.
Muslim or Jewish women who would not be comfortable using these toilets.
Women who have been sexually assaulted and don’t feel comfortable sharing intimate spaces with unknown males.

These are just a few examples of the thousands/ millions of women who will no longer be able to use public toilets if this becomes more commonplace.

@Chickenyhead

I'm not sure what type of man would want to make any women uncomfortable like that.

At a busy venue, it was likely that some women would feel uncomfortable with males in the toilets.

Yet, men like that do exist. And men who will not just be ok with making women uncomfortable, but also intimidate, harass, rape and murder women.

I must admit, although I would be uncomfortable at a busy venue, I would feel in more danger in a quieter venue. At least at a busy venue, others may come to your assistance. Even looking at the youtube recording of a male (allegedly, I suppose I should say) assaulting a girl in Brazil, people were able to come to her assistance; maybe even prevent life altering injuries as he appeared to be trying to stomp on her as well. If not life ending injuries. The other girl who came to her assistance could not stop the male, but a guy intervened and the male assailant at least had to contend with someone of similar strength.

I agree; if some males are going to be in women's facilities then those men are already fine with breaking women's boundaries and either don't care about women's problems with this, their discomfort with this, or are actively getting needs met by breaking those boundaries anyway and experiencing women's reactions.

Many women have said they would be safer with all males than these few males, because at least they would have potential protection from a male who would care about a woman being harassed or assaulted and is physically large enough (as happened in the Brazil video) to yank a male out of the way with one arm while two women together couldn't fight off the attacker.

However unpack that.

Women returning to needing the protection of males in public places.

Women with male relatives who will become increasingly concerned and feel the need to escort them in public places.

Women forced to seek protection from some male people from other male people and hope those male people are the right kind of male people and feel generous. Because safety from male people is in male people's gift.

Oh and wait for the first court case where it comes out "but you went into that place knowing male people use it, didn't you choose to put yourself intentionally at risk? Wearing a short skirt? After dark?". It will become 'nice girls don't go into public facilities without a male guardian'.

Shall we just get the corsets and the bustles out and hand the vote back now? Or shall we get really bloody angry and say no women are not flinging their rights aside to nurture male people's needs?

Hang on a minute, there was a mens toilets but the women’s was ‘gender neutral’ the fuck.

@Imaybeacat

Hang on a minute, there was a mens toilets but the women’s was ‘gender neutral’ the fuck.

I was wondering if it was a "urinals" and a "stalls" set up. So if the man in the "gender neutral" queue needed a poo, he couldn't go in the other toilets - I know they do this at festivals sometimes and I think some venues have done the same.

Being generous of course

I was wondering if it was a "urinals" and a "stalls" set up

No, according to venue one block( probably former gents) 4 urinals+ 2 cubicles.

So the gents really still the gents. No choice for a they/ them (possibly female) not to have to traipse past men in an exposed state. Set up is the same as it ever was. Just a free for all (males) in the former 'ladies'.

Urinals need to be ripped out and replaced by cubicles, if they are being 'inclusive'.

The fact OP had to email organiser proves how confusing the layout and signage was . OP did think they were gender neutral so why wouldn't anyone else

@jewel1968

I read somewhere once that boys and girls use the same toilets when they are very little e.g. nursery. Some think that if we didn't split the genders when kids are in primary school then behaviour in toilets would be fine - respectful etc ... They think the problems are caused by segregation. I kinda understand that. And I think there has been research to support this. The problem today is they just want to enforce gender neutral toilets on a population that has been used to separate toilets. I think if they want to do gender neutral toilets in society they need to do it gradually and start with the very young and instill good behaviours.

People usually don't see a need to separate very little children from each other(or other adults for that matter) based on gender because they are pretty much clueless. But around 6 is when they become fully aware of differences in sex and would be uncomfortable with mixed facilities. This is also when adults as well start getting uncomfortable with opposite sex children in their toilets. It would be difficult to get beyond this, I think, especially for adults to be in mixed facilities with each other.

At my kids primary reception was loos attached to the reception classroom (two loos, both mixed sex). Older dc were segregated by sex and by age. Different loos for different key stages. The plumbing was different (lower loos and sinks for the younger ones) and the cubicles had lower screens for the youngest.
Playtime was also segregated by age. The youngest are vulnerable to the much stronger older ones.

Update, having kept a close eye on this thread, I sent a further email to the venue that included some of the points articulated in this thread. The response from the venue is pasted below. Hopefully I've removed all identifying details - it's worth persevering to the end.

Dear MakeTeaNotWar

Thank you for your thorough and very thought-provoking email.

It has been raised today as a point of discussion at our weekly operations meeting.I hope this response sufficiently addresses your points and concerns, if however, it doesn’t please do come back to me.

XX Venue has been a venue for many years. As the current operators and license holders, we have attempted to ensure that the venue is as inclusive and welcoming as possible. We extend this welcome to all without prejudice.

We understand ‘inclusivity’ is a dynamic field and we have tried to keep up to date with all access developments, whether it’s in the realm of building developments to support our customers with physical access needs or to seek out, challenge and negate other barriers which would include race, sexuality, socio-economic background or gender.

Ultimately, we want everyone that attends Venue to feel safe and welcome at all times; including when they need to go to the toilet.

The incident that you have highlighted from Friday 4thNovember is one that we as a venue were unaware of. You say that a man was ‘intoxicated’ and that you “observed women demonstrate discomfort” and that this mans’ behaviour concerned you. All events that take place at Venue are discussed in advance in terms of the audience profile. the nature of the event along with audience numbers. Security and Stewarding staff are then scheduled on accordingly.

We want to encourage anyone experiencing any discomfort to engage with our professionally trained staff so they can support them. To this end, we are going to be putting clear signage up in the toilet area that trained staff are always available for anyone that needs support.

As a venue we do not tolerate intimidating or bullying behaviour from anyone.

You questioned whether we asked our customer base is they support mixed sex toilets. I can assure you that our decision to establish mixed sex facilities came as a direct result of consultation with our audiences, and specifically in response to comments of how some members of our audiences felt that the previous facilities did not meet their needs. It was an attempt to make our venue more, not less accessible.

As you will appreciate – this is an area of venue operations that has come under scrutiny relatively quickly in context of a wider debate in society. We are aware of current legislation that supports same sex facilities and others that prohibit it.

As a very small and unfunded venue we are not in a position to always keep abreast of every development. Consequently we thank you for bringing the Building Regulations to our attention as we were not aware of our breach. We hope in the future to find the funds to create the self-contained cubicles as you describe and make our facilities completely inclusive.

In the meantime, we will revert the toilets back to single sex facilities with our accessible toilet and baby-change space (with toilet) remaining gender inclusive.

Best Wishes

Oh well done OP. Magnificent job!

of how some members of our audiences felt that the previous facilities did not meet their needs. It was an attempt to make our venue more, not less accessible.
So some men felt their needs weren't being met by being denied access to the Ladies? And this unmet need was immediately facilitated 🤦‍♀️

But yes, fabulous outcome, you're a ⭐️!

Good work, OP! Excellent result!

Well done.

Very good, op. Excellent outcome, and good on you. It would have been hypocritical of them to keep the 'gent's with the exposed men at the urinals, if they just called everything gender neutral.

Just shows how these sort of places perform a male entitled 'inclusivity' which very much excludes the wishes and needs of women. Maybe at the behest of those who actively misrepresent the law as well.

Anyways, the single sex women's toilets are inclusive. Any woman can use them, irrespective of any 'gender identity' they hold. Just doesn't include the sex class of men.

Good work op!

Fucking yas! Amazing, OP. A great big gold star for you, that is just brilliant.

Who on earth would imagine women would be cheering toilet provision in 2021, eh?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-41999792

Great news - well done!!