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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2

397 replies

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 13:33

Due to some people's fervent objections, here is the article with the mention of the questionnaire excised.

As you can see, the article stands without it.

part 1

Is a lesbian transphobic if she does not want to have sex with trans women? Some lesbians say they are increasingly being pressured and coerced into accepting trans women as partners - then shunned and even threatened for speaking out. Several have spoken to the BBC, along with trans women who are concerned about the issue too.

Warning: Story contains strong language

"I've had someone saying they would rather kill me than Hitler," says 24-year-old Jennie*.

"They said they would strangle me with a belt if they were in a room with me and Hitler. That was so bizarrely violent, just because I won't have sex with trans women."

Jennie is a lesbian woman. She says she is only sexually attracted to women who are biologically female and have vaginas. She therefore only has sex and relationships with women who are biologically female.

Jennie doesn't think this should be controversial, but not everyone agrees. She has been described as transphobic, a genital fetishist, a pervert and a "terf" - a trans exclusionary radical feminist.

"There's a common argument that they try and use that goes 'What if you met a woman in a bar and she's really beautiful and you got on really well and you went home and you discovered that she has a penis? Would you just not be interested?'" says Jennie, who lives in London and works in fashion.

"Yes, because even if someone seems attractive at first you can go off them. I just don't possess the capacity to be sexually attracted to people who are biologically male, regardless of how they identify."

I became aware of this particular issue after I wrote an article aboutsex, lies and legal consent.

Several people got in touch with me to say there was a "huge problem" for lesbians, who were being pressured to "accept the idea that a penis can be a female sex organ".

I knew this would be a hugely divisive subject, but I wanted to find out how widespread the issue was.

Ultimately, it has been difficult to determine the true scale of the problem because there has been little research on this topic - only one survey to my knowledge. However, those affected have told me the pressure comes from a minority of trans women, as well as activists who are not necessarily trans themselves.

They described being harassed and silenced if they tried to discuss the issue openly. I received online abuse myself when I tried to find interviewees using social media.

One of the lesbian women I spoke to, 24-year-old Amy*, told me she experienced verbal abuse from her own girlfriend, a bisexual woman who wanted them to have a threesome with a trans woman.

When Amy explained her reasons for not wanting to, her girlfriend became angry.

"The first thing she called me was transphobic," Amy said. "She immediately jumped to make me feel guilty about not wanting to sleep with someone."

She said the trans woman in question had not undergone genital surgery, so still had a penis.

"I know there is zero possibility for me to be attracted to this person," said Amy, who lives in the south west of England and works in a small print and design studio.

"I can hear their male vocal cords. I can see their male jawline. I know, under their clothes, there is male genitalia. These are physical realities, that, as a woman who likes women, you can't just ignore."

Amy said she would feel this way even if a trans woman had undergone genital surgery - which some opt for, while many don't.

Soon afterwards Amy and her girlfriend split up.

"I remember she was extremely shocked and angry, and claimed my views were extremist propaganda and inciting violence towards the trans community, as well as comparing me to far-right groups," she said.

Another lesbian woman, 26-year-old Chloe*, said she felt so pressured she ended up having penetrative sex with a trans woman at university after repeatedly explaining she was not interested.

They lived near each other in halls of residence. Chloe had been drinking alcohol and does not think she could have given proper consent.

"I felt very bad for hating every moment, because the idea is we are attracted to gender rather than sex, and I did not feel that, and I felt bad for feeling like that," she said.

Ashamed and embarrassed, she decided not to tell anyone.

"The language at the time was very much 'trans women are women, they are always women, lesbians should date them'. And I was like, that's the reason I rejected this person. Does that make me bad? Am I not going to be allowed to be in the LGBT community anymore? Am I going to face repercussions for that instead?' So I didn't actually tell anyone."

Hearing about experiences like these led one lesbian activist to begin researching the topic. Angela C. Wild is co-founder of Get The L Out, whose members believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement.

She and her fellow activists have demonstrated at Pride marches in the UK, where they have faced opposition. Pride in London accused the group of "bigotry, ignorance and hate".

"Lesbians are still extremely scared to speak because they think they won't be believed, because the trans ideology is so silencing everywhere," she said.

"I thought I would be called a transphobe or that it would be wrong of me to turn down a trans woman who wanted to exchange nude pictures," one woman wrote. "Young women feel pressured to sleep with trans women 'to prove I am not a terf'."

One woman reported being targeted in an online group. "I was told that homosexuality doesn't exist and I owed it to my trans sisters to unlearn my 'genital confusion' so I can enjoy letting them penetrate me," she wrote.

One compared going on dates with trans women to so-called conversion therapy - the controversial practice of trying to change someone's sexual orientation.

"I knew I wasn't attracted to them but internalised the idea that it was because of my 'transmisogyny' and that if I dated them for long enough I could start to be attracted to them. It was DIY conversion therapy," she wrote.

Another reported a trans woman physically forcing her to have sex after they went on a date.

"[They] threatened to out me as a terf and risk my job if I refused to sleep with [them]," she wrote. "I was too young to argue and had been brainwashed by queer theory so [they were] a 'woman' even if every fibre of my being was screaming throughout so I agreed to go home with [them]. [They] used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing [their] penis and raped me."

While welcomed by some in the LGBT community, Angela's report was described as transphobic by others.

"[People said] we are worse than rapists because we [supposedly] try to frame every trans woman as a rapist," said Angela.

"This is not the point. The point is that if it happens we need to speak about it. If it happens to one woman it's wrong. As it turns out it happens to more than one woman."

Trans YouTuber Rose of Dawn has discussed the issue on her channelin a video called "Is Not Dating Trans People 'Transphobic'?"

"This is something I've seen happen in real life to friends of mine. This was happening before I actually started my channel and it was one of the things that spurred it on," said Rose.

"What's happening is women who are attracted to biological females and female genitalia are finding themselves put in very awkward positions, where if for example on a dating website a trans woman approaches them and they say 'sorry I'm not into trans women', then they are labelled as transphobic."

Rose made the video in response to a series of tweets bytrans athlete Veronica Ivy, then known as Rachel McKinnon,whowrote about hypothetical scenarioswhere trans people are rejected, and argued that "genital preferences" are transphobic.

I asked Veronica Ivy if she would speak to me but she did not want to.

Rose believes views like this are "incredibly toxic". She believes the idea that dating preferences are transphobic is being pushed by radical trans activists and their "self-proclaimed allies", who have extreme views which don't reflect the views of trans women she knows in real life.

"Certainly from my own friends group, the trans women I'm friends with, almost all of them agree lesbians are free to exclude trans women from their dating pool," she said.

However, she believes even trans people are afraid to talk openly about this for fear of abuse.

"People like me receive quite a lot of abuse from trans activists and their allies," she said.

"The trans activist side is incredibly rabid against people who they see as stepping out of line."

Debbie Hayton, a science teacher who transitioned in 2012 andwrites about trans issues, worries some people transition without realising how hard it will be to form relationships.

Although there is currently little data on the sexual orientation of trans women, she believes most are female-attracted because they are biologically male and most males are attracted to women.

"So when they [trans women] are trying to find partners, when lesbian women say 'we want women', and heterosexual women say they want a heterosexual man, that leaves trans women isolated from relationships, and possibly feeling very let down by society, angry, upset and feeling that the world is out to get them," she said.

Debbie thinks it's fine if a lesbian woman does not want to date a trans woman, but is concerned some are being pressured to do so.

"The way that shaming is used is just horrific; it's emotional manipulation and warfare going on," she said.

"These women who want to form relationships with other biological women are feeling bad about that. How did we get here?"

Stonewall is the largest LGBT organisation in the UK and Europe. I asked the charity about these issues but it was unable to provide anyone for interview. However, in a statement, chief executive Nancy Kelley likened not wanting to date trans people to not wanting to date people of colour, fat people, or disabled people.

She said: "Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

"We know that prejudice is still common in the LGBT+ community, and it's important that we can talk about that openly and honestly."

OP posts:
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QueenSue · 27/10/2021 17:02

@crumpet

I am also uncomfortable with the references to bisexuality, which imply that bisexuals may not be able to say no to sex with trans people. Bisexual people have just as much right as anyone else to decide who they might want to to sleep with.
Yes. I have seen it expressed elsewhere that bi women have no excuse to say no to trans people, we're just being evil transphobes if we say no. That is rapey as well.
bordersroaming · 27/10/2021 17:03

@Enough4me

I think this has been asked before, but still don't understand, if TW can specify that sexually they just want vaginas, why can't lesbians also specify that they just want vaginas?
Because the males are the most hard fine by people in the universe and the females are just females
bordersroaming · 27/10/2021 17:03

Fine ? Done

Datun · 27/10/2021 17:04

Today, as every day, my love and solidarity to trans people. And today, as every day is a good day to listen to trans people when they talk about their lives. Including the brilliant @christineburns. #LWithTheT*

That L with the T is really chilling. It feels like lesbians are being forced. All alongside 'without exception, no debate, and let that penetrate'.

All this denial that transwomen are coercing lesbians into sex might sound a little less hollow if every time a prominent woman disagrees with the ideology they weren't told they will get raped.

foxgoosefinch · 27/10/2021 17:08

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

Basically, this all boils down to one question:

Is it bigotry to exclude a people from your dating pool based on their biological sex?

If the answer to that question is yes, then how does that fit with the Eqaulity Act 2010, in which sexual orientation and same sex attraction is a protected characteristic?

You’re not providing a public service by sleeping with someone (yet - I’ve no doubt the pro sex work activists think that’s what ought to be the case) — so the Equality Act doesn’t apply!
ArabellaScott · 27/10/2021 17:09

@crumpet

I am also uncomfortable with the references to bisexuality, which imply that bisexuals may not be able to say no to sex with trans people. Bisexual people have just as much right as anyone else to decide who they might want to to sleep with.
Hear, hear. See my earlier point above.

Consent is not just an absence of no.

Consent means enthusiastic, informed choice.

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2021 17:10

@Enough4me

I think this has been asked before, but still don't understand, if TW can specify that sexually they just want vaginas, why can't lesbians also specify that they just want vaginas?
It's fairly obvious why.
nevernomore · 27/10/2021 17:11

@Helleofabore

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

Chilling.

Every time I read it.

Absolutely.

I cannot believe that Stonewall, purportedly a charity for the rights of gay and lesbian people, is comparing sexual orientation to personal preferences for who you fancy.

Also, anyone is perfectly entitled to reject anyone for any reason. Dating, by definition, is discriminatory. If you are 'inclusive' in your dating you think you are entitled to zero boundaries and probably need serious therapy to raise your sense of self.

foxgoosefinch · 27/10/2021 17:13

for an organisation that absolutely rejects the notion that social contagion is behind ROGD, it's really inconsistent that now they're saying it's behind sexual attraction.

Yeah - so sexual orientation is social and can be changed, but the mystical “gender” isn’t! (Despite the fact that gender is quite literally the social performance of sex roles…)

As someone else said upthread, it’s not like it’s a surprise for gender ideology to be inconsistent and full of holes; —but honestly, the desperation is palpable now that the whole edifice is creaking at every seam.

nevernomore · 27/10/2021 17:26

@Realityisreal

My daughter is a lesbian and suffers greatly with anxiety, she has friends who are trans and is very supportive of them, she also contacted Stonewall when at school (she's at university now) to help educate staff on Trans issues. I'm very concerned, given her very nervous and kind nature that she could easily be coerced if someone suggested she was a transphobe if she didn't sleep with/ have a relationship with them, especially now that Stonewall appears to say that her sexual preference is down to 'social prejudice' I have asked her what she would do if she was getting intimate with a partner and they had a penis which she hadn't expected and didn't want, she said she'd rehearsed a response and would say something akin to 'No thank you.' It's sad that I felt the need for the conversation, and sad that she already rehearsed a response to the scenario.
The problem is, as a straight women, it can be hard to say no to a man who you are getting intimate with but have decided you don't want to have sex with. Because you are afraid of his reaction. It is easier to just go through with it and get it over than risk assault. And a male who has tricked you into thinking they are female, and has the weight of this movement, and 'gay and lesbian' organisations like Stonewall, behind him, telling him that the woman rejecting him is phobic and hate-filled and demonised as a terf, is not a male who is likely to respect boundaries expressed in a 'no' by the woman he has been told he is socially sanctioned to hate.

This is why to combat rape and assault we need a zero tolerance culture. This is why women need to be able to explicitly state they only want same sex partners from the outset, rather than when things have already progressed to intimacy.

And Stonewall and this movement are not zero tolerance as they are explicitly telling lesbians their boundaries are prejudiced and they deserve to be hated for them.

Its appalling. I can't understand why commentators are not placing this in terms of history of rape culture and homophobia faced by women and lesbians.

Vanishun · 27/10/2021 17:33

That Reddit thread is surprising. I'm amazed it hasn't been deleted yet.

PronounssheRa · 27/10/2021 17:33

What strikes me about all of this is, if this wasn't happening, there was no sexual coercion of lesbians, Stonewall could have come out refuted the allegations with evidence. Or alternatively offered support to lesbians who may have encountered this.

They didnt do either . Instead they say "Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

Which basically tells lesbians to examine their prejudice if they don't accept dick in their dating pool. The largest lgbt organisation in the country is a massive part of the problem.

LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 17:39

@ArabellaScott

We've had this discussion before about consent and attraction.

The idea that it's wrong to 'exclude' people from your 'dating pool' operates on the assumption that the default is to be open to being sexually engaged with everyone, and that we then remove or exclude people from the pool.

That, I think, is fallacious for most. One could almost call it rapey - consent operates on a basis of 'no' as starting point, and seeks enthusiastic, informed consent. It does not start with 'yes' as a presumed starting point and then strike people out or find valid reasons to strike them out. There have been campaigns on consent that have sought to make this very point. (Consent is not about saying 'no', it's about saying 'yes').

The default is neutral - not feeling attraction. It's a small minority that most people find attractive. Vanishingly small, even. Out of the hundreds of people we walk past/encounter, only a very tiny fraction will be attractive.

Perhaps it is semantics, but I'd argue it like this.

There are two dating "pools" - the male one and the female one. Dependent on your sexual orientation you might go fishing in Pool M or Pool F, or both.

Sophie is a straight women. The fact that everyone male is in Pool M, Sophie's dating pool, doesn't in any way imply that "yes" is Sophie starting point when she identifies an male in Pool M. It just means when she goes fishing she will never be casting her hook in Pool F.

ChloeCrocodile · 27/10/2021 17:39

I grew up hearing that your sexuality was something you were born with, from organisations like Stonewall, and that those suggesting peoples sexual orientation was affected by society and therefore could be changed were the bigots. How have we strayed so far from that?

Exactly this. The fact that sexual orientation is innate is the exact reason why conversion therapy is harmful. Without the “innateness” of sexual orientation, the statement ‘Some people are gay. Get over it.’ is nonsense.

LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 17:42

Further.... Sophie hates skinny men. She will never date one. That is her preference and her right. But they are still part of her dating pool because you dating pool is everyone who you could be theoretically attracted to based on your sexual orientation.

Maybe others have very different definitions and their dating pool is defined by weight and age (for example), not just sex.

I'd argue that when Sophie goes fishing in Pool M she fishes towards the side of the pool where the kind of men she likes hang out, not at the side of the pool with trans women or the side with obese men.

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2021 17:43

Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But

It's that bit that gets me. It's the 'But'.

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2021 17:44

Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

And the invisible, unspoken 'group' that hovers over Nancy's list of groups there is 'male'.

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2021 17:45

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

TeamRex · 27/10/2021 17:46

Very stark point Arabella, there is no "but". Everyone should only date people they find attractive and there's no equal opportunity requirement for that.

PronounssheRa · 27/10/2021 17:46

Some people are gay. Get over it.

Seems to have been replaced by stonewall to 'some people are gay they need to get over it'

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 27/10/2021 17:49

So Stonewall - who commented on this issue in yesterday's BBC article - are telling LGB people (more accurately L) that their same-sex attraction isn't real. They should therefore subject themselves to something suspiciously resembling conversion therapy, so as to 'cure' themselves of their supposed 'prejudices' (to everyone else, that's sexual orientation). This is rank homophobia, wrapped up in a rainbow flag by the very charity that existed to support their interests in the first place. Have I got this right?

The homophobia is bad. What's even worse is the implications for trauma victims, for the coercive, rapey culture that seems to exist around this red pill-swallowing movement. Consent is a black and white issue. If a person, or a movement - doesn't matter who it is - is muddying the waters around questions of enthusiastic consent than that is something to be very, very concerned about. Not one of these people are ones I'd trust anywhere near me on a dark night (or broad daylight, for that matter).

I agree that the BUT in Stonewall's statement is very telling. I was waiting for it, and they didn't disappoint.

DuckDuckNo · 27/10/2021 17:53

'without exception, no debate, and let that penetrate'

They chose that word. Shock

LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 17:53

@crumpet

I am also uncomfortable with the references to bisexuality, which imply that bisexuals may not be able to say no to sex with trans people. Bisexual people have just as much right as anyone else to decide who they might want to to sleep with.
As one possible poster you might have issue with...

My point is that if someone is open to sleeping with men and women then they cannot do what a lesbian can do. A lesbian can reject a TW on the simple basis that the TW is a man, and lesbians do not fancy men. If someone doesn't fancy you because they don't fancy people of your sex there really is NOTHING you can say in response.

A bisexual woman cannot do the same thing. They can't reject a TW for being the wrong sex. Obviously said bi-sexual woman can reject the TW for any reason or none, but they can't use the absolutely watertight "excuse" of "I don't fancy men".

Datun · 27/10/2021 17:58

@DuckDuckNo

'without exception, no debate, and let that penetrate'

They chose that word. Shock

The 'I am a woman, let that penetrate' was India Willoughby on Big Brother. And yes it was an unfortunate choice of words.

And there was also the projection onto the side of a building which said 'repeat after us, transwomen are women'.

All of it just sounds awful.

BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2
TeamRex · 27/10/2021 18:00

I wish people would get over the idea that you need a reason for not dating someone.

We really need to start teaching young women boundaries. There is no need to say "sorry no because... "., "just sorry I am not interested in you". That's enough!

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