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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2

397 replies

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 13:33

Due to some people's fervent objections, here is the article with the mention of the questionnaire excised.

As you can see, the article stands without it.

part 1

Is a lesbian transphobic if she does not want to have sex with trans women? Some lesbians say they are increasingly being pressured and coerced into accepting trans women as partners - then shunned and even threatened for speaking out. Several have spoken to the BBC, along with trans women who are concerned about the issue too.

Warning: Story contains strong language

"I've had someone saying they would rather kill me than Hitler," says 24-year-old Jennie*.

"They said they would strangle me with a belt if they were in a room with me and Hitler. That was so bizarrely violent, just because I won't have sex with trans women."

Jennie is a lesbian woman. She says she is only sexually attracted to women who are biologically female and have vaginas. She therefore only has sex and relationships with women who are biologically female.

Jennie doesn't think this should be controversial, but not everyone agrees. She has been described as transphobic, a genital fetishist, a pervert and a "terf" - a trans exclusionary radical feminist.

"There's a common argument that they try and use that goes 'What if you met a woman in a bar and she's really beautiful and you got on really well and you went home and you discovered that she has a penis? Would you just not be interested?'" says Jennie, who lives in London and works in fashion.

"Yes, because even if someone seems attractive at first you can go off them. I just don't possess the capacity to be sexually attracted to people who are biologically male, regardless of how they identify."

I became aware of this particular issue after I wrote an article aboutsex, lies and legal consent.

Several people got in touch with me to say there was a "huge problem" for lesbians, who were being pressured to "accept the idea that a penis can be a female sex organ".

I knew this would be a hugely divisive subject, but I wanted to find out how widespread the issue was.

Ultimately, it has been difficult to determine the true scale of the problem because there has been little research on this topic - only one survey to my knowledge. However, those affected have told me the pressure comes from a minority of trans women, as well as activists who are not necessarily trans themselves.

They described being harassed and silenced if they tried to discuss the issue openly. I received online abuse myself when I tried to find interviewees using social media.

One of the lesbian women I spoke to, 24-year-old Amy*, told me she experienced verbal abuse from her own girlfriend, a bisexual woman who wanted them to have a threesome with a trans woman.

When Amy explained her reasons for not wanting to, her girlfriend became angry.

"The first thing she called me was transphobic," Amy said. "She immediately jumped to make me feel guilty about not wanting to sleep with someone."

She said the trans woman in question had not undergone genital surgery, so still had a penis.

"I know there is zero possibility for me to be attracted to this person," said Amy, who lives in the south west of England and works in a small print and design studio.

"I can hear their male vocal cords. I can see their male jawline. I know, under their clothes, there is male genitalia. These are physical realities, that, as a woman who likes women, you can't just ignore."

Amy said she would feel this way even if a trans woman had undergone genital surgery - which some opt for, while many don't.

Soon afterwards Amy and her girlfriend split up.

"I remember she was extremely shocked and angry, and claimed my views were extremist propaganda and inciting violence towards the trans community, as well as comparing me to far-right groups," she said.

Another lesbian woman, 26-year-old Chloe*, said she felt so pressured she ended up having penetrative sex with a trans woman at university after repeatedly explaining she was not interested.

They lived near each other in halls of residence. Chloe had been drinking alcohol and does not think she could have given proper consent.

"I felt very bad for hating every moment, because the idea is we are attracted to gender rather than sex, and I did not feel that, and I felt bad for feeling like that," she said.

Ashamed and embarrassed, she decided not to tell anyone.

"The language at the time was very much 'trans women are women, they are always women, lesbians should date them'. And I was like, that's the reason I rejected this person. Does that make me bad? Am I not going to be allowed to be in the LGBT community anymore? Am I going to face repercussions for that instead?' So I didn't actually tell anyone."

Hearing about experiences like these led one lesbian activist to begin researching the topic. Angela C. Wild is co-founder of Get The L Out, whose members believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement.

She and her fellow activists have demonstrated at Pride marches in the UK, where they have faced opposition. Pride in London accused the group of "bigotry, ignorance and hate".

"Lesbians are still extremely scared to speak because they think they won't be believed, because the trans ideology is so silencing everywhere," she said.

"I thought I would be called a transphobe or that it would be wrong of me to turn down a trans woman who wanted to exchange nude pictures," one woman wrote. "Young women feel pressured to sleep with trans women 'to prove I am not a terf'."

One woman reported being targeted in an online group. "I was told that homosexuality doesn't exist and I owed it to my trans sisters to unlearn my 'genital confusion' so I can enjoy letting them penetrate me," she wrote.

One compared going on dates with trans women to so-called conversion therapy - the controversial practice of trying to change someone's sexual orientation.

"I knew I wasn't attracted to them but internalised the idea that it was because of my 'transmisogyny' and that if I dated them for long enough I could start to be attracted to them. It was DIY conversion therapy," she wrote.

Another reported a trans woman physically forcing her to have sex after they went on a date.

"[They] threatened to out me as a terf and risk my job if I refused to sleep with [them]," she wrote. "I was too young to argue and had been brainwashed by queer theory so [they were] a 'woman' even if every fibre of my being was screaming throughout so I agreed to go home with [them]. [They] used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing [their] penis and raped me."

While welcomed by some in the LGBT community, Angela's report was described as transphobic by others.

"[People said] we are worse than rapists because we [supposedly] try to frame every trans woman as a rapist," said Angela.

"This is not the point. The point is that if it happens we need to speak about it. If it happens to one woman it's wrong. As it turns out it happens to more than one woman."

Trans YouTuber Rose of Dawn has discussed the issue on her channelin a video called "Is Not Dating Trans People 'Transphobic'?"

"This is something I've seen happen in real life to friends of mine. This was happening before I actually started my channel and it was one of the things that spurred it on," said Rose.

"What's happening is women who are attracted to biological females and female genitalia are finding themselves put in very awkward positions, where if for example on a dating website a trans woman approaches them and they say 'sorry I'm not into trans women', then they are labelled as transphobic."

Rose made the video in response to a series of tweets bytrans athlete Veronica Ivy, then known as Rachel McKinnon,whowrote about hypothetical scenarioswhere trans people are rejected, and argued that "genital preferences" are transphobic.

I asked Veronica Ivy if she would speak to me but she did not want to.

Rose believes views like this are "incredibly toxic". She believes the idea that dating preferences are transphobic is being pushed by radical trans activists and their "self-proclaimed allies", who have extreme views which don't reflect the views of trans women she knows in real life.

"Certainly from my own friends group, the trans women I'm friends with, almost all of them agree lesbians are free to exclude trans women from their dating pool," she said.

However, she believes even trans people are afraid to talk openly about this for fear of abuse.

"People like me receive quite a lot of abuse from trans activists and their allies," she said.

"The trans activist side is incredibly rabid against people who they see as stepping out of line."

Debbie Hayton, a science teacher who transitioned in 2012 andwrites about trans issues, worries some people transition without realising how hard it will be to form relationships.

Although there is currently little data on the sexual orientation of trans women, she believes most are female-attracted because they are biologically male and most males are attracted to women.

"So when they [trans women] are trying to find partners, when lesbian women say 'we want women', and heterosexual women say they want a heterosexual man, that leaves trans women isolated from relationships, and possibly feeling very let down by society, angry, upset and feeling that the world is out to get them," she said.

Debbie thinks it's fine if a lesbian woman does not want to date a trans woman, but is concerned some are being pressured to do so.

"The way that shaming is used is just horrific; it's emotional manipulation and warfare going on," she said.

"These women who want to form relationships with other biological women are feeling bad about that. How did we get here?"

Stonewall is the largest LGBT organisation in the UK and Europe. I asked the charity about these issues but it was unable to provide anyone for interview. However, in a statement, chief executive Nancy Kelley likened not wanting to date trans people to not wanting to date people of colour, fat people, or disabled people.

She said: "Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

"We know that prejudice is still common in the LGBT+ community, and it's important that we can talk about that openly and honestly."

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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SpindelWhorl · 27/10/2021 15:26

@CharlieParley

There was not one comment from our regular pro-self-id contributors and new ones willing to defend lesbians and call out the LGBT community for sweeping this issue under the carpet.

1000 comment thread and not one pro-self-id poster said unequivocally it is perfectly acceptable for lesbians to a) be exclusively same-sex attracted and to b) assert their sexual boundaries against all males, including those who identify as trans and c) they deserve the protection of the LGBT community and LGBT organisations if and when they do so.

Instead we had ad-hominem against the journalist and the survivors who told their stories, we had whataboutery on a pathetic scale. Oh if the coercion of female homosexuals by male transgender people happens, it cannot be often, so why are you even discussing this and in any case, here's an even rarer instance of a predatory homosexual female, why aren't you discussing that instead? We had denial, dismissal and my absolute favourite - lesbians talking about being raped by male members of the trans community are bringing male members of the trans community into disrepute which will be used to argue that male members of the trans community should be subject to the same safeguarding rules as all other males.

No shit Sherlock.

I haven't managed to catch up yet on the whole of Thread #1, @CharlieParley - I'm about two-thirds of the way through and this is the exact same impression that I'm getting. Thanks for articulating it so concisely.
Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 27/10/2021 15:27

@logsonlogsoff

‘ As I've said before, lesbians are not robots filing down another line of robots with a binary code for acceptance or rejection.

We make rich, elaborate choices about who we want to date, and for some of those choices include translesbians, and they have been good choices resulting in happy relationships.

One lesbian's choice to include or exclude certain people says nothing about another lesbian's choices.’

Yup!
I once got into a massive argument with a straight, GC friend who wanted to talk to me about the cotton ceiling ( which I hadn’t even HEARD of at the time- she got it off Twitter) because she was massively pissed off when I told her that it wasn’t a thing, trans women weren’t trying to force lesbian to have sex with them despite what she’d heard from trans activists or GC activists on SM.
She was desperate to ‘protect’ me for something I didn’t need protecting from, and outraged that I wasn’t outraged.
It was really bizarre. I pointed out that some lesbians do have relationships with trans people, in my experience, and that it was none of my or her business. But what do I know?. I’ve only been a lesbian and active in LGBT+ life,
Communities and scenes for 35 years. Whereas friend has read all the books, while living MC, straight life with her DH.

If 'lesbian' means a female who is attracted to biological males and females, and also means males who identify as women and are attracted to females, then what is the word for females who are exclusively only attracted to other females?
Datun · 27/10/2021 15:28

@logsonlogsoff

‘ As I've said before, lesbians are not robots filing down another line of robots with a binary code for acceptance or rejection.

We make rich, elaborate choices about who we want to date, and for some of those choices include translesbians, and they have been good choices resulting in happy relationships.

One lesbian's choice to include or exclude certain people says nothing about another lesbian's choices.’

Yup!
I once got into a massive argument with a straight, GC friend who wanted to talk to me about the cotton ceiling ( which I hadn’t even HEARD of at the time- she got it off Twitter) because she was massively pissed off when I told her that it wasn’t a thing, trans women weren’t trying to force lesbian to have sex with them despite what she’d heard from trans activists or GC activists on SM.
She was desperate to ‘protect’ me for something I didn’t need protecting from, and outraged that I wasn’t outraged.
It was really bizarre. I pointed out that some lesbians do have relationships with trans people, in my experience, and that it was none of my or her business. But what do I know?. I’ve only been a lesbian and active in LGBT+ life,
Communities and scenes for 35 years. Whereas friend has read all the books, while living MC, straight life with her DH.

Eh? But if you talk about a 'straight' GC friend who apparently doesn't have your experience as a lesbian, according to transgenderism, your friend could be a male, or a female, in a relationship with a male or a female.

If you can have a male lesbian, you can have two males involved in fellatio, both of whom are lesbians.

You calling yourself a lesbian, is meaningless if you subscribe to this ideology. You could be a man who is married to another man.

LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 15:28

@Beamur

Sexual attraction is discriminatory. I rule out large swathes of people from my potential dating pool. No women, only a specific age range, similar level of education, compatible hobbies, no one with strict religious adherence, no one with addiction issues, physical attraction/values, etc all have to line up. Telling anyone, male or female that you can't do this is nonsense.
Agree 100%. But if you added "no blacks, no muslims and no-one with so much as a limp" I would think that you might be a racist islamaphobe who is bigoted against the disabled, even if I was someone who preferred light skinned atheists who were in as good health as possible!

Personal choice is everything, for whatever reason. But bigotry and dating preferences can overlap.

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 27/10/2021 15:30

Agree 100%. But if you added "no blacks, no muslims and no-one with so much as a limp" I would think that you might be a racist islamaphobe who is bigoted against the disabled, even if I was someone who preferred light skinned atheists who were in as good health as possible!

Personal choice is everything, for whatever reason. But bigotry and dating preferences can overlap.

What has any of that got to do with same sex attracted females though?

LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 15:37

@Lovelyricepudding

If I were dating then I would rule put transwomen because I would not want to be with someone who lies and claims my sex as an identity, who is undermining my rights, who promotes regressive sex stereotypes....
What if they claim to be a man who likes dresses and likes (but does not expect) validation? Who is active in the anti-stonewall GC movement and has a playful attitude to dressing up which is much less stereotypical than most trans women?

You have every right to still say "no, no chance at all"... but is there not an argument that you are writing off a group because of their perceived attributes, and not judging them on a case by case basis, which sounds a lot like bigotry?

I suppose my position is that whilst people can exclude whoever they want for whatever reason... but at some point that reason can start to look like bigotry if you are automatically dismissing someone of the correct sex simply for being trans.

I'm not having a go... by my argument here I am a bigot and a transphobe... and if my argumetn is right bigot and transphobe is not a negative in this context!

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 27/10/2021 15:39

Agree 100%. But if you added "no blacks, no muslims and no-one with so much as a limp" I would think that you might be a racist islamaphobe who is bigoted against the disabled, even if I was someone who preferred light skinned atheists who were in as good health as possible! Yeah.. but if you then forced me to have sex with someone with any of those characteristics, would you still call that rape? Corrective rape, for the good of my bigoted soul?

Personal choice is everything, for whatever reason. But bigotry and dating preferences can overlap. Yep, but we don't prosecute for thoughts* we prosecute actions

*Well, that was the case until recently when it became clear that thinking can very easily be transphobic / illegal... see various extant court cass.

334bu · 27/10/2021 15:39

LaetitiaASD, how can a same sex attracted person be bigoted for not wanting to have sex with someone of the opposite sex?

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 27/10/2021 15:41

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Sophoclesthefox · 27/10/2021 15:42

There’s still this conflation of preferences and orientations on this thread. I’m really seeing the pernicious influence of the recent explosion of the supremacy of people’s individual choices in everything. An orientation is a blanket inclusion/exclusion policy. And that’s fine. Making it “case by case” is of no utility except to wheedle in those who wouldn’t ordinarily get acceptance as part of the blanket inclusion policy. It’s fundamentally dishonest.

I also don’t think that having sex with someone does anything at all to prove that you’re not otherwise prejudiced towards the community to which that person belongs. Plenty of ardent woman haters still have relationships with women. Plenty of racists still have sex with people of the ethnic origin they are otherwise racist about. Having sex with someone doesn’t mean you agree with them. So the line about “excluding people of colour from your dating pool makes you a racist” doesn’t really say much, because you could be a howling racist and still have sex with oodles of people of every ethnicity- it’s really not any kind of differentiator. And it’s still a preference. And most of all- nobody’s body is the BBC, statutorily required to provide balance by including everyone.

LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 15:43

[quote Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet]**@Helleofabore Although this isn't the point of the discussion what Ash said in this quote isn't actually at all chilling. Preferences aren't formed in a vacuum and can often times be heavily influenced by societal pressures.

Ash didn't say that, Nancy Kelley did?

And what she is saying is that if you want to exclude people from your dating pool based on their biological sex (ie. Trans people) then that is prejudiced and a preference that could have been shaped by society. Isn't that what homophobes have said all along? That sexual orientation is a 'choice' that can be changed?

Same sex attraction and sexual orientation is a protected characteristic in the Equality Act.[/quote]
But is she saying that? Or is she saying "if you are a lesbian it is transphobic to be rule out dating female bodied trans people. If you are a straight woman it's transphobic to rule out dating a trans woman (ie a man)"?

I fear she is saying the nonsense that you assert she is... but part of me thinks that her words are deliberately ambiguous so she can deny your interpretation later.

BatmansBat · 27/10/2021 15:43

Are we back to comparing race with sex again? I really wish people wouldn’t link racism to homosexuality.

If I would be dating, I would only consider biological men. That is my orientation.

Then I would like my potential date to be above 45, very clever and not too skinny. Those are my preferences.

I may consider someone younger, someone skinny and someone less clever if everything else worked.

I would not be sexually attracted to even the most clever, curvy, gorgeous woman in her late forties. I am not sexually oriented towards women.

334bu · 27/10/2021 15:46

The racism angle is a total red herring used to try and mask the rampant homophobia of stating that lesbian women have no right to be same sex attracted if a male who identifies as a woman wants to have sex with them. Could conversion therapy by any other name.

334bu · 27/10/2021 15:47

Could?

LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 15:49

@334bu

LaetitiaASD, how can a same sex attracted person be bigoted for not wanting to have sex with someone of the opposite sex?
They can't!

What did I say that made you ask?

FindTheTruth · 27/10/2021 15:53

Extract from this lesbian experience

"One of the Chloes knocks on my door. This one wears a pink tube top and a pencil skirt. I am strongly reminded of Buffalo Bill. He asks me out for coffee. I decline. He asks why, as I am single. I say that I am busy that day. He tries asking for another day. I say I am playing club football that day. He keeps trying to cajole me. Eventually I dispense with the politeness and tell him I am not interested in him. He shouts at me that I am transphobic and leaves."

"A few hours later, my phone blows up. His friends are calling me transphobic for not being interested in him. It’s just one date, they say. One little coffee. You might like it. You don’t know. Your last girlfriend dressed the same. You need to unlearn your genital preferences."

-----------
Thoughts
as a backdrop to the BBC article which focused on being pressured into sex with males, lesbians are being called transphobic or trans men by heterosexual people. It's rape culture. It's conversion culture.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 27/10/2021 15:54

They can't!

What did I say that made you ask?

As I said earlier, you have floated close to, seem to be saying such stuff. You are entertaining the idea when you say that preferences and bigotry overlap etc.

Paddle back - save yourself Smile

RoseisMadder · 27/10/2021 15:59

You can decide not to date someone because you have opposing views, different interests, any reason at all.
For example I won’t date anyone called Andrew, my choice for my own reasons. Doesn’t mean I think every man with that name is bad!
We can also choose to stop dating someone for any reason. For example I’d stop dating someone if I found they’d cheated on an ex. Again, my choice.

IfNot · 27/10/2021 16:02

She was desperate to ‘protect’ me for something I didn’t need protecting from, and outraged that I wasn’t outraged. It was really bizarre. I pointed out that some lesbians do have relationships with trans people, in my experience, and that it was none of my or her business. But what do I know?. I’ve only been a lesbian and active in LGBT+ life, communities and scenes for 35 years

Not meaning to be rude, but maybe the fact that you are over 50 is why you haven't had to deal with men trying to get in your pants? I mean, men in general aren't generally harassing grown women, it's usually young girls the creeps go for. Just because it's not hapened to you doesn't mean it's not happening to young lesbians. Why don't you beleive them?

Sophoclesthefox · 27/10/2021 16:03

I told her that it wasn’t a thing, trans women weren’t trying to force lesbian to have sex with them

So what about the women in the article, @logsonlogsoff? They say it happens, because it has happened to them.

Were they lying? Wrong? Fictitious?

Do you ordinarily react to women’s stories of sexual abuse and coercion by cheerily stating that that hasn’t been your experience? Because while I’m pleased that you haven’t had the experience, these women have and I think they ought to be allowed to talk about it without people jumping to shame and discredit them. Don’t you?

LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 16:04

[quote HoardingSamphireSaurus]@LaetitiaASD In your attempts to be even handed you are floating into dangerously 'Handmaiden' waters. Waters where Be Nice guides your trajectory, stifles your free thought and reframes your reality.

Paddle back a bit, for your own sake![/quote]
Point taken, though I note that I am kinda running the arguments more than expressing a firmly held opinion.

I suppose I am trying to emphasize that in theory everyone should have a chink of openness to dating a trans person so long as that person's sex matches your sexual orientation, even if in practice

I note that a trans person could - to all intents and purposes - come across like any other man or woman of their own biological sex. In theory a trans woman could present exactly like the highly masculine suit wearing men you tend to go for and be gender critical!

CabSauv52 · 27/10/2021 16:06

As a straight person who was very much behind LesBiGay back in the day (1990s) I am disgusted that Stonewall is throwing women under the bus. I have complimented the BBC and complained to Stonewall. Which part of 'No means no' do some sectors of the transcommunity not understand? All of it, it would seem. I tire of the world revolving around them at the expense of others just as I tire of even very nice, decent men not grasping that we live in patriarchy.

I imagine that most people (whatever their sex or sexual preference) have had a knockback at some point and have felt gutted that the object of their desire hasn't been interested or declined to take things further. I probably wouldn't date a woman, a woman who identifies as a man or a man who identifies as a woman. Do I need to be reprogrammed?

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 27/10/2021 16:07

I suppose I am trying to emphasize that in theory everyone should have a chink of openness to dating a trans person so long as that person's sex matches your sexual orientation, even if in practice

Given that my fmeale, hitherto hetero, ex boss married a long time friend of mine who is a transman I don't disagree.

But I would also not disagree with anyone who just said no.

LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 16:08

... even if in practice it is highly unikely that it would happen for a myriad of incredibly valid reasons, and whilst noting that reasons for not dating someone can be completely arbitrary..

FindTheTruth · 27/10/2021 16:10

The racism angle is a total red herring used to try and mask the rampant homophobia of stating that lesbian women have no right to be same sex attracted if a male who identifies as a woman wants to have sex with them. conversion therapy by any other name.

@334bu the rampant homophobia in universities and LGBT groups is horrifying, with heterosexuals telling lesbians they are 'transmen' and calling lesbians 'transphobic'. Closed communities where no dissent is allowed and sexual-orientation is punished

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