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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2

397 replies

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 13:33

Due to some people's fervent objections, here is the article with the mention of the questionnaire excised.

As you can see, the article stands without it.

part 1

Is a lesbian transphobic if she does not want to have sex with trans women? Some lesbians say they are increasingly being pressured and coerced into accepting trans women as partners - then shunned and even threatened for speaking out. Several have spoken to the BBC, along with trans women who are concerned about the issue too.

Warning: Story contains strong language

"I've had someone saying they would rather kill me than Hitler," says 24-year-old Jennie*.

"They said they would strangle me with a belt if they were in a room with me and Hitler. That was so bizarrely violent, just because I won't have sex with trans women."

Jennie is a lesbian woman. She says she is only sexually attracted to women who are biologically female and have vaginas. She therefore only has sex and relationships with women who are biologically female.

Jennie doesn't think this should be controversial, but not everyone agrees. She has been described as transphobic, a genital fetishist, a pervert and a "terf" - a trans exclusionary radical feminist.

"There's a common argument that they try and use that goes 'What if you met a woman in a bar and she's really beautiful and you got on really well and you went home and you discovered that she has a penis? Would you just not be interested?'" says Jennie, who lives in London and works in fashion.

"Yes, because even if someone seems attractive at first you can go off them. I just don't possess the capacity to be sexually attracted to people who are biologically male, regardless of how they identify."

I became aware of this particular issue after I wrote an article aboutsex, lies and legal consent.

Several people got in touch with me to say there was a "huge problem" for lesbians, who were being pressured to "accept the idea that a penis can be a female sex organ".

I knew this would be a hugely divisive subject, but I wanted to find out how widespread the issue was.

Ultimately, it has been difficult to determine the true scale of the problem because there has been little research on this topic - only one survey to my knowledge. However, those affected have told me the pressure comes from a minority of trans women, as well as activists who are not necessarily trans themselves.

They described being harassed and silenced if they tried to discuss the issue openly. I received online abuse myself when I tried to find interviewees using social media.

One of the lesbian women I spoke to, 24-year-old Amy*, told me she experienced verbal abuse from her own girlfriend, a bisexual woman who wanted them to have a threesome with a trans woman.

When Amy explained her reasons for not wanting to, her girlfriend became angry.

"The first thing she called me was transphobic," Amy said. "She immediately jumped to make me feel guilty about not wanting to sleep with someone."

She said the trans woman in question had not undergone genital surgery, so still had a penis.

"I know there is zero possibility for me to be attracted to this person," said Amy, who lives in the south west of England and works in a small print and design studio.

"I can hear their male vocal cords. I can see their male jawline. I know, under their clothes, there is male genitalia. These are physical realities, that, as a woman who likes women, you can't just ignore."

Amy said she would feel this way even if a trans woman had undergone genital surgery - which some opt for, while many don't.

Soon afterwards Amy and her girlfriend split up.

"I remember she was extremely shocked and angry, and claimed my views were extremist propaganda and inciting violence towards the trans community, as well as comparing me to far-right groups," she said.

Another lesbian woman, 26-year-old Chloe*, said she felt so pressured she ended up having penetrative sex with a trans woman at university after repeatedly explaining she was not interested.

They lived near each other in halls of residence. Chloe had been drinking alcohol and does not think she could have given proper consent.

"I felt very bad for hating every moment, because the idea is we are attracted to gender rather than sex, and I did not feel that, and I felt bad for feeling like that," she said.

Ashamed and embarrassed, she decided not to tell anyone.

"The language at the time was very much 'trans women are women, they are always women, lesbians should date them'. And I was like, that's the reason I rejected this person. Does that make me bad? Am I not going to be allowed to be in the LGBT community anymore? Am I going to face repercussions for that instead?' So I didn't actually tell anyone."

Hearing about experiences like these led one lesbian activist to begin researching the topic. Angela C. Wild is co-founder of Get The L Out, whose members believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement.

She and her fellow activists have demonstrated at Pride marches in the UK, where they have faced opposition. Pride in London accused the group of "bigotry, ignorance and hate".

"Lesbians are still extremely scared to speak because they think they won't be believed, because the trans ideology is so silencing everywhere," she said.

"I thought I would be called a transphobe or that it would be wrong of me to turn down a trans woman who wanted to exchange nude pictures," one woman wrote. "Young women feel pressured to sleep with trans women 'to prove I am not a terf'."

One woman reported being targeted in an online group. "I was told that homosexuality doesn't exist and I owed it to my trans sisters to unlearn my 'genital confusion' so I can enjoy letting them penetrate me," she wrote.

One compared going on dates with trans women to so-called conversion therapy - the controversial practice of trying to change someone's sexual orientation.

"I knew I wasn't attracted to them but internalised the idea that it was because of my 'transmisogyny' and that if I dated them for long enough I could start to be attracted to them. It was DIY conversion therapy," she wrote.

Another reported a trans woman physically forcing her to have sex after they went on a date.

"[They] threatened to out me as a terf and risk my job if I refused to sleep with [them]," she wrote. "I was too young to argue and had been brainwashed by queer theory so [they were] a 'woman' even if every fibre of my being was screaming throughout so I agreed to go home with [them]. [They] used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing [their] penis and raped me."

While welcomed by some in the LGBT community, Angela's report was described as transphobic by others.

"[People said] we are worse than rapists because we [supposedly] try to frame every trans woman as a rapist," said Angela.

"This is not the point. The point is that if it happens we need to speak about it. If it happens to one woman it's wrong. As it turns out it happens to more than one woman."

Trans YouTuber Rose of Dawn has discussed the issue on her channelin a video called "Is Not Dating Trans People 'Transphobic'?"

"This is something I've seen happen in real life to friends of mine. This was happening before I actually started my channel and it was one of the things that spurred it on," said Rose.

"What's happening is women who are attracted to biological females and female genitalia are finding themselves put in very awkward positions, where if for example on a dating website a trans woman approaches them and they say 'sorry I'm not into trans women', then they are labelled as transphobic."

Rose made the video in response to a series of tweets bytrans athlete Veronica Ivy, then known as Rachel McKinnon,whowrote about hypothetical scenarioswhere trans people are rejected, and argued that "genital preferences" are transphobic.

I asked Veronica Ivy if she would speak to me but she did not want to.

Rose believes views like this are "incredibly toxic". She believes the idea that dating preferences are transphobic is being pushed by radical trans activists and their "self-proclaimed allies", who have extreme views which don't reflect the views of trans women she knows in real life.

"Certainly from my own friends group, the trans women I'm friends with, almost all of them agree lesbians are free to exclude trans women from their dating pool," she said.

However, she believes even trans people are afraid to talk openly about this for fear of abuse.

"People like me receive quite a lot of abuse from trans activists and their allies," she said.

"The trans activist side is incredibly rabid against people who they see as stepping out of line."

Debbie Hayton, a science teacher who transitioned in 2012 andwrites about trans issues, worries some people transition without realising how hard it will be to form relationships.

Although there is currently little data on the sexual orientation of trans women, she believes most are female-attracted because they are biologically male and most males are attracted to women.

"So when they [trans women] are trying to find partners, when lesbian women say 'we want women', and heterosexual women say they want a heterosexual man, that leaves trans women isolated from relationships, and possibly feeling very let down by society, angry, upset and feeling that the world is out to get them," she said.

Debbie thinks it's fine if a lesbian woman does not want to date a trans woman, but is concerned some are being pressured to do so.

"The way that shaming is used is just horrific; it's emotional manipulation and warfare going on," she said.

"These women who want to form relationships with other biological women are feeling bad about that. How did we get here?"

Stonewall is the largest LGBT organisation in the UK and Europe. I asked the charity about these issues but it was unable to provide anyone for interview. However, in a statement, chief executive Nancy Kelley likened not wanting to date trans people to not wanting to date people of colour, fat people, or disabled people.

She said: "Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

"We know that prejudice is still common in the LGBT+ community, and it's important that we can talk about that openly and honestly."

OP posts:
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Datun · 27/10/2021 18:03

A bisexual woman cannot do the same thing. They can't reject a TW for being the wrong sex. Obviously said bi-sexual woman can reject the TW for any reason or none, but they can't use the absolutely watertight "excuse" of "I don't fancy men".

There have been several bisexual women on here who have said they do reject trans people, across-the-board.

Because if they want to be with a woman, it's an actual woman, and not a man who thinks he's a woman and is just showing the stereotypical presentation. And the same if they want to be with a man. They are attracted to someone of that sex, not someone who thinks they're the opposite sex.

And on that same note, I was reading about a transwoman who rejected bisexual women anyway, because they never knew whether or not that women might be attracted to them as a male, or a female, and it wasn't validating.

Bisexuality is not a gotcha from either side of the fence.

bordersroaming · 27/10/2021 18:04

The basic excuse is " I don't fancy you"

You don't need a reason , you don't owe anyone an explanation

FlyingOink · 27/10/2021 18:07

Some of our sexual attraction is undoubtedly driven by what society tells us is attractive but actually it's a lot more complex than that. If it was all about social pressure, homosexuality wouldn't exist.

Exactly

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 27/10/2021 18:08

And on that same note, I was reading about a transwoman who rejected bisexual women anyway, because they never knew whether or not that women might be attracted to them as a male, or a female, and it wasn't validating.

Interesting. I wonder where this assumption comes from that another human being should be expected to fuck you to 'validate' your sense of identity.

I've heard no similar rhetoric emanating from trans men. And if TWAW then they're way off-base, because no woman I've ever met (I'm also bisexual) carries an expectation of sex in this way. Nor goes to these kinds of lengths in order to get it.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 27/10/2021 18:14

A bisexual woman cannot do the same thing. They can't reject a TW for being the wrong sex. Obviously said bi-sexual woman can reject the TW for any reason or none, but they can't use the absolutely watertight "excuse" of "I don't fancy men".

Row back harder. Few will get past the first sentence...

LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 18:15

@Datun

A bisexual woman cannot do the same thing. They can't reject a TW for being the wrong sex. Obviously said bi-sexual woman can reject the TW for any reason or none, but they can't use the absolutely watertight "excuse" of "I don't fancy men".

There have been several bisexual women on here who have said they do reject trans people, across-the-board.

Because if they want to be with a woman, it's an actual woman, and not a man who thinks he's a woman and is just showing the stereotypical presentation. And the same if they want to be with a man. They are attracted to someone of that sex, not someone who thinks they're the opposite sex.

And on that same note, I was reading about a transwoman who rejected bisexual women anyway, because they never knew whether or not that women might be attracted to them as a male, or a female, and it wasn't validating.

Bisexuality is not a gotcha from either side of the fence.

First, to emphasize - obvs a bisexual woman can reject the TW for any reason or no reason.

My point - and maybe I am making it badly - is this. IMHO deciding to sleep with someone could be thought of as a two stage process.

Stage 1 - given my sexual orientation and their biological sex is there any possibility whatsoever of an attraction?

Stage 2 - given my preferences do I want sex with this individual?

My point is that a lesbian by definition will reject a TW at stage 1... if she doesn't then she isn't a lesbian even if she thinks she is.

In contrast a bisexual woman can only reject at stage 2, which she is perfectly at liberty to do for any reason or none.

FWIW... 100% I would never sleep with someone of the "wrong sex" given my orientation. 99.999% I would never sleep with a trans person for all sorts of reasons, but, there is a tiny chance that I might because some trans people are of a sex that I fancy, many don't have surgery, and some don't even try to present as their identified gender.

ChloeCrocodile · 27/10/2021 18:16

IMO, sexual attraction is made up of two things: sexual orientation and sexual preferences.

Sexual preferences may well be influenced by society - eg liking tall men, or thin women.
Sexual orientation is not. You are either attracted to men, or women, or both. But you are born that way.

What stonewall seem to be implying with their statement is that there is no distinction between these two things. Which is exactly how they are contributing to the problem of some lesbians feeling pressured in to sex with some trans women. They are pushing lesbians to see their sexual orientation as something which is influenced by society and can be changed (ie conversion therapy).

FlyingOink · 27/10/2021 18:23

You have every right to still say "no, no chance at all"...
Cool, thanks

but is there not an argument that you are writing off a group because of their perceived attributes, and not judging them on a case by case basis, which sounds a lot like bigotry?
Why would you have to judge on a case by case basis anyway? We're talking about sexual attraction. It's either there or it isn't. If it isn't, no amount of hand-wringing will make that attraction happen. This sounds very much like trying to make "no" a starting point for negotiation, which is very rapey and very male.

I suppose my position is that whilst people can exclude whoever they want for whatever reason... but at some point that reason can start to look like bigotry
And again, for the umpteenth time, who benefits from having sex with people who don't want to have sex with them? Do I benefit from having sex with a woman who hates my ethnicity, my religion, my political beliefs, my job? No.

I've been someone's "experimental phase" before, and it sucked. Why would I want to do that again?
Why would I want to be with someone who fetishised something that was intrinsic to me? Why would I want to be the token (insert descriptor) in some bigot's life?
What would I gain from having someone who didn't like "people like me" for whatever reason suddenly make an exception for me?
In the framework of women's sexuality it makes no sense. Its absolutely a male, conquering, hate-fucking mindset.

I have zero interest in convincing someone who isn't attracted to me to have sex with me. Anyone who acts like that is red flag central.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 27/10/2021 18:24

@LaetitiaASD You'd have to go back to the 1980s to find that happening in real life.

When gender bending was rife and 'dress code' didn't indicate sexuality I would have / did sleep with a few men who 'presented as women'. They weren't any kind of lesbian and neither was I.

But that isn't the case these days. Gender ideology comes with a big fat side order of "and I have changed sex^ so sleep with me as I present". THAT won't fly with many!

Oddly... none of the straight gender bending men or women I knew back then are now trans - all are in the right age group for late transition though!

One man who always knew he was 'in the wrong body/wanted to be a woman' began his transition way back in the 90s. But he is fully aware that he is male, even after much surgery.

And if that sounds like I know a lot of trans people I don't think I do. But back in the 80s everyone in my age group was a Gender Bender. Everyone I socialised with, slept with, me, even the man I married. That's why I initially dismissed all of this as a storm in a teapot. I thought "Hey! Kids, nothing is new, I've lived through this before and it was fun!" I know better now!

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 27/10/2021 18:25

for an organisation that absolutely rejects the notion that social contagion is behind ROGD, it's really inconsistent that now they're saying it's behind sexual attraction.

This is such a good point and so true!

Any suggestions of ROGD being a social issue are instantly dismissed, usually with 'being trans is just like bring gay, it's nothing to do with social contagion'.

But a lesbian wanting to exclude people of the opposite sex from her dating pool may want to think about the 'social reasons' that she feels that sort of 'prejudice?

Could this ideology be any more contradictory and hypocritical?!

AlfonsoTheUnrepetant · 27/10/2021 18:25

If I were dating then I would rule put transwomen because I would not want to be with someone who lies and claims my sex as an identity, who is undermining my rights, who promotes regressive sex stereotypes....

This is an interesting statement and helped me to crystallise my own thoughts.

I would not date someone who believes that they have changed sex.

PronounssheRa · 27/10/2021 18:28

m.youtube.com/watch?v=eOqbwWymcTo&feature=youtu.be

Magdalen called this out 4 years ago. It covers many of the points around sexual orientation and sexual preference.

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 27/10/2021 18:29

Also, so true about the 'But'.

There should never be a 'but' after that statement!

Datun · 27/10/2021 18:30

Also, for the record, you can absolutely reject someone due to your own bigotry, or racism, or homophobia. You can reject someone for any bloody reason.

VladmirsPoutine · 27/10/2021 18:31

@ChloeCrocodile Your post has helped me clarify my own thinking. I am getting lost at the conflation of sexual orientation with preferences like height, race, whatever. As much as I might find a woman phenomenally beautiful and intelligent I would never seek to date her because I'm just not into women even if she had the same aesthetics I look for in men.

LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 18:32

[quote HoardingSamphireSaurus]@LaetitiaASD You'd have to go back to the 1980s to find that happening in real life.

When gender bending was rife and 'dress code' didn't indicate sexuality I would have / did sleep with a few men who 'presented as women'. They weren't any kind of lesbian and neither was I.

But that isn't the case these days. Gender ideology comes with a big fat side order of "and I have changed sex^ so sleep with me as I present". THAT won't fly with many!

Oddly... none of the straight gender bending men or women I knew back then are now trans - all are in the right age group for late transition though!

One man who always knew he was 'in the wrong body/wanted to be a woman' began his transition way back in the 90s. But he is fully aware that he is male, even after much surgery.

And if that sounds like I know a lot of trans people I don't think I do. But back in the 80s everyone in my age group was a Gender Bender. Everyone I socialised with, slept with, me, even the man I married. That's why I initially dismissed all of this as a storm in a teapot. I thought "Hey! Kids, nothing is new, I've lived through this before and it was fun!" I know better now![/quote]
Interesting perspective which makes complete sense to me!

I was 7 or 8 when I first saw Boy George on TOTP - unbelieveable to think TRAs are dragging us backwards to before this point.

MedusasBadHairDay · 27/10/2021 18:38

@Datun

Also, for the record, you can absolutely reject someone due to your own bigotry, or racism, or homophobia. You can reject someone for any bloody reason.
Quite.

Also, even if someone's reason for rejecting someone as a sexual partner was based on bigotry and prejudice, why the fuck would the subject of their bigotry want to sleep with them??

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 27/10/2021 18:44

God I miss Magdalen's videos.

I often wonder where she would be at now with the craziness of the whole thing? And what she would think about how the sunlight is finally seeping in?

LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 18:44

@FlyingOink

You have every right to still say "no, no chance at all"... Cool, thanks

but is there not an argument that you are writing off a group because of their perceived attributes, and not judging them on a case by case basis, which sounds a lot like bigotry?
Why would you have to judge on a case by case basis anyway? We're talking about sexual attraction. It's either there or it isn't. If it isn't, no amount of hand-wringing will make that attraction happen. This sounds very much like trying to make "no" a starting point for negotiation, which is very rapey and very male.

I suppose my position is that whilst people can exclude whoever they want for whatever reason... but at some point that reason can start to look like bigotry
And again, for the umpteenth time, who benefits from having sex with people who don't want to have sex with them? Do I benefit from having sex with a woman who hates my ethnicity, my religion, my political beliefs, my job? No.

I've been someone's "experimental phase" before, and it sucked. Why would I want to do that again?
Why would I want to be with someone who fetishised something that was intrinsic to me? Why would I want to be the token (insert descriptor) in some bigot's life?
What would I gain from having someone who didn't like "people like me" for whatever reason suddenly make an exception for me?
In the framework of women's sexuality it makes no sense. Its absolutely a male, conquering, hate-fucking mindset.

I have zero interest in convincing someone who isn't attracted to me to have sex with me. Anyone who acts like that is red flag central.

Can I say that I find "Cool, thanks" really annoying. I have stated the absolutely obvious EXPLICITLY in order to avoid the (inevitable) accusation that I don't believe the absolutely obvious... and I just get some sarky "cool thanks" in response. If it weren't for people disingenuously and wilfully misinterpreting then I would n't need to state the obvious!

"judge on a case by case basis" - I meant noting whether you are attracted to someone. Obviously I am rationalising a process using words when the reality of what goes on in people's heads is more complex yet more simple too!

I am not seeking to make no a starting point for negotiation. I am saying that if a TW wishes to sleep with Janine whose sexual orientation includes men, then Janine can still reject the TW for any reason or none, obviously.

If Janine, however, were to say "I would never sleep with a trans woman under any circumstances. Even if they presented in a masculine way and had the sort of body and personality I go for. Even if they were a GC environmentalist who loves tennis like me, I wouldn't consider dating them because they identify as trans", then that starts looking a bit transphobic to me. It starts to look like the only reason to reject them is the trans thing.

Everything you say beneath "I suppose my position is that whilst people can exclude whoever they want for whatever reason... but at some point that reason can start to look like bigotry" seems off topic to me... I'm not sure what you think I've said that you;re railing against.

LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 18:48

@AlfonsoTheUnrepetant

If I were dating then I would rule put transwomen because I would not want to be with someone who lies and claims my sex as an identity, who is undermining my rights, who promotes regressive sex stereotypes....

This is an interesting statement and helped me to crystallise my own thoughts.

I would not date someone who believes that they have changed sex.

100% agree... but in theory we could all meet a TW who does none of those things! I'm guessing that most do one or more of those disgusting things but there is nothing to stop a TW presenting as the male they are, claiming womanhood as something that they like playing at in a masculine way (as opposed to any sort of real identity), who promotes gender expression separate from sex and identity and who fights for women's single sex spaces!

But yeah, entirely reasonable to assume that a TW is not going to tick every box!

FlyingOink · 27/10/2021 18:52

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Vanishun · 27/10/2021 18:53

Nah, not buying it.

Anyone could say "no, never" to sex with a transgender woman or man under any circumstances.

This does not align them with actual transphobic people who (I assume?) would cheerfully bash someone's head in / want them gone / make their life a misery / call them awful names etc etc.

It is not "phobic" to say you would not have sexual contact with a group of people.

"Homophobia" is not a refusal to sleep with gay people after all. It's treating them badly because of their preferences.

FlyingOink · 27/10/2021 18:57

If Janine, however, were to say "I would never sleep with a trans woman under any circumstances. Even if they presented in a masculine way and had the sort of body and personality I go for. Even if they were a GC environmentalist who loves tennis like me, I wouldn't consider dating them because they identify as trans", then that starts looking a bit transphobic to me. It starts to look like the only reason to reject them is the trans thing.
So
What
?

Everything you say beneath "I suppose my position is that whilst people can exclude whoever they want for whatever reason... but at some point that reason can start to look like bigotry" seems off topic to me... I'm not sure what you think I've said that you;re railing against.
I love this. You've doubled down on the fact that some "no"s are acceptable and some "no"s are somehow unacceptable.
All the "no"s are acceptable.

Wanting to convince someone that they don't really mean "no" when they say "no" is not progressive.

AlfonsoTheUnrepetant · 27/10/2021 18:58

@LaetitiaASD - I was quoting someone else when I referred to If I were dating then I would rule put transwomen because I would not want to be with someone who lies and claims my sex as an identity, who is undermining my rights, who promotes regressive sex stereotypes.... in my post.

FlyingOink · 27/10/2021 19:00

Oh look I've bagged a deletion. Nice.

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