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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2

397 replies

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 13:33

Due to some people's fervent objections, here is the article with the mention of the questionnaire excised.

As you can see, the article stands without it.

part 1

Is a lesbian transphobic if she does not want to have sex with trans women? Some lesbians say they are increasingly being pressured and coerced into accepting trans women as partners - then shunned and even threatened for speaking out. Several have spoken to the BBC, along with trans women who are concerned about the issue too.

Warning: Story contains strong language

"I've had someone saying they would rather kill me than Hitler," says 24-year-old Jennie*.

"They said they would strangle me with a belt if they were in a room with me and Hitler. That was so bizarrely violent, just because I won't have sex with trans women."

Jennie is a lesbian woman. She says she is only sexually attracted to women who are biologically female and have vaginas. She therefore only has sex and relationships with women who are biologically female.

Jennie doesn't think this should be controversial, but not everyone agrees. She has been described as transphobic, a genital fetishist, a pervert and a "terf" - a trans exclusionary radical feminist.

"There's a common argument that they try and use that goes 'What if you met a woman in a bar and she's really beautiful and you got on really well and you went home and you discovered that she has a penis? Would you just not be interested?'" says Jennie, who lives in London and works in fashion.

"Yes, because even if someone seems attractive at first you can go off them. I just don't possess the capacity to be sexually attracted to people who are biologically male, regardless of how they identify."

I became aware of this particular issue after I wrote an article aboutsex, lies and legal consent.

Several people got in touch with me to say there was a "huge problem" for lesbians, who were being pressured to "accept the idea that a penis can be a female sex organ".

I knew this would be a hugely divisive subject, but I wanted to find out how widespread the issue was.

Ultimately, it has been difficult to determine the true scale of the problem because there has been little research on this topic - only one survey to my knowledge. However, those affected have told me the pressure comes from a minority of trans women, as well as activists who are not necessarily trans themselves.

They described being harassed and silenced if they tried to discuss the issue openly. I received online abuse myself when I tried to find interviewees using social media.

One of the lesbian women I spoke to, 24-year-old Amy*, told me she experienced verbal abuse from her own girlfriend, a bisexual woman who wanted them to have a threesome with a trans woman.

When Amy explained her reasons for not wanting to, her girlfriend became angry.

"The first thing she called me was transphobic," Amy said. "She immediately jumped to make me feel guilty about not wanting to sleep with someone."

She said the trans woman in question had not undergone genital surgery, so still had a penis.

"I know there is zero possibility for me to be attracted to this person," said Amy, who lives in the south west of England and works in a small print and design studio.

"I can hear their male vocal cords. I can see their male jawline. I know, under their clothes, there is male genitalia. These are physical realities, that, as a woman who likes women, you can't just ignore."

Amy said she would feel this way even if a trans woman had undergone genital surgery - which some opt for, while many don't.

Soon afterwards Amy and her girlfriend split up.

"I remember she was extremely shocked and angry, and claimed my views were extremist propaganda and inciting violence towards the trans community, as well as comparing me to far-right groups," she said.

Another lesbian woman, 26-year-old Chloe*, said she felt so pressured she ended up having penetrative sex with a trans woman at university after repeatedly explaining she was not interested.

They lived near each other in halls of residence. Chloe had been drinking alcohol and does not think she could have given proper consent.

"I felt very bad for hating every moment, because the idea is we are attracted to gender rather than sex, and I did not feel that, and I felt bad for feeling like that," she said.

Ashamed and embarrassed, she decided not to tell anyone.

"The language at the time was very much 'trans women are women, they are always women, lesbians should date them'. And I was like, that's the reason I rejected this person. Does that make me bad? Am I not going to be allowed to be in the LGBT community anymore? Am I going to face repercussions for that instead?' So I didn't actually tell anyone."

Hearing about experiences like these led one lesbian activist to begin researching the topic. Angela C. Wild is co-founder of Get The L Out, whose members believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement.

She and her fellow activists have demonstrated at Pride marches in the UK, where they have faced opposition. Pride in London accused the group of "bigotry, ignorance and hate".

"Lesbians are still extremely scared to speak because they think they won't be believed, because the trans ideology is so silencing everywhere," she said.

"I thought I would be called a transphobe or that it would be wrong of me to turn down a trans woman who wanted to exchange nude pictures," one woman wrote. "Young women feel pressured to sleep with trans women 'to prove I am not a terf'."

One woman reported being targeted in an online group. "I was told that homosexuality doesn't exist and I owed it to my trans sisters to unlearn my 'genital confusion' so I can enjoy letting them penetrate me," she wrote.

One compared going on dates with trans women to so-called conversion therapy - the controversial practice of trying to change someone's sexual orientation.

"I knew I wasn't attracted to them but internalised the idea that it was because of my 'transmisogyny' and that if I dated them for long enough I could start to be attracted to them. It was DIY conversion therapy," she wrote.

Another reported a trans woman physically forcing her to have sex after they went on a date.

"[They] threatened to out me as a terf and risk my job if I refused to sleep with [them]," she wrote. "I was too young to argue and had been brainwashed by queer theory so [they were] a 'woman' even if every fibre of my being was screaming throughout so I agreed to go home with [them]. [They] used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing [their] penis and raped me."

While welcomed by some in the LGBT community, Angela's report was described as transphobic by others.

"[People said] we are worse than rapists because we [supposedly] try to frame every trans woman as a rapist," said Angela.

"This is not the point. The point is that if it happens we need to speak about it. If it happens to one woman it's wrong. As it turns out it happens to more than one woman."

Trans YouTuber Rose of Dawn has discussed the issue on her channelin a video called "Is Not Dating Trans People 'Transphobic'?"

"This is something I've seen happen in real life to friends of mine. This was happening before I actually started my channel and it was one of the things that spurred it on," said Rose.

"What's happening is women who are attracted to biological females and female genitalia are finding themselves put in very awkward positions, where if for example on a dating website a trans woman approaches them and they say 'sorry I'm not into trans women', then they are labelled as transphobic."

Rose made the video in response to a series of tweets bytrans athlete Veronica Ivy, then known as Rachel McKinnon,whowrote about hypothetical scenarioswhere trans people are rejected, and argued that "genital preferences" are transphobic.

I asked Veronica Ivy if she would speak to me but she did not want to.

Rose believes views like this are "incredibly toxic". She believes the idea that dating preferences are transphobic is being pushed by radical trans activists and their "self-proclaimed allies", who have extreme views which don't reflect the views of trans women she knows in real life.

"Certainly from my own friends group, the trans women I'm friends with, almost all of them agree lesbians are free to exclude trans women from their dating pool," she said.

However, she believes even trans people are afraid to talk openly about this for fear of abuse.

"People like me receive quite a lot of abuse from trans activists and their allies," she said.

"The trans activist side is incredibly rabid against people who they see as stepping out of line."

Debbie Hayton, a science teacher who transitioned in 2012 andwrites about trans issues, worries some people transition without realising how hard it will be to form relationships.

Although there is currently little data on the sexual orientation of trans women, she believes most are female-attracted because they are biologically male and most males are attracted to women.

"So when they [trans women] are trying to find partners, when lesbian women say 'we want women', and heterosexual women say they want a heterosexual man, that leaves trans women isolated from relationships, and possibly feeling very let down by society, angry, upset and feeling that the world is out to get them," she said.

Debbie thinks it's fine if a lesbian woman does not want to date a trans woman, but is concerned some are being pressured to do so.

"The way that shaming is used is just horrific; it's emotional manipulation and warfare going on," she said.

"These women who want to form relationships with other biological women are feeling bad about that. How did we get here?"

Stonewall is the largest LGBT organisation in the UK and Europe. I asked the charity about these issues but it was unable to provide anyone for interview. However, in a statement, chief executive Nancy Kelley likened not wanting to date trans people to not wanting to date people of colour, fat people, or disabled people.

She said: "Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

"We know that prejudice is still common in the LGBT+ community, and it's important that we can talk about that openly and honestly."

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 16:11

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

I suppose I am trying to emphasize that in theory everyone should have a chink of openness to dating a trans person so long as that person's sex matches your sexual orientation, even if in practice

Given that my fmeale, hitherto hetero, ex boss married a long time friend of mine who is a transman I don't disagree.

But I would also not disagree with anyone who just said no.

Erm, at the risk of starting an argument with someone I seem to pretty much agree with... surely your ex-boss has always been bisexual, it's just you (and maybe them) didn;t realise!
FindTheTruth · 27/10/2021 16:12

TWEET
Watson @ImWatson91
Imagine being a lesbian and having the courage to speak out about your assault, only to be called a liar and see #CisWithTheT trending.

The cruelty is beyond belief.

prudencepuffin · 27/10/2021 16:13

The case for same sex attraction has already been made (and for gods sake, why does it have to be made AGAIN. We should have moved on since Queen Victoria who I believe also had a problem recognising lesbians), but on top of that, it strikes me that most women, lesbian or straight or bi-sexual, may have a problem with dating people who have such little respect for empathy for women. Anyhow, its a good article and I have emailed the BBC to say so.

QueenSue · 27/10/2021 16:13

I like how the previous thread ended.

BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2
HoardingSamphireSaurus · 27/10/2021 16:14

Erm, at the risk of starting an argument with someone I seem to pretty much agree with... surely your ex-boss has always been bisexual, it's just you (and maybe them) didn;t realise!

At risk of fanning those flames.. I said "hitherto". She never mentioned anything, was previously married with kids, didn't willingly end that relationship.

So, no idea. Anything is possible.

I was agreeing with you. But you seem to be looking for the Room for an Arguement Smile

FindTheTruth · 27/10/2021 16:15

The DIY conversion therapy talked about here feels more like 'conversion culture' aka 'rape culture'.

"I knew I wasn't attracted to them but internalised the idea that it was because of my 'transmisogyny' and that if I dated them for long enough I could start to be attracted to them. It was DIY conversion therapy," she wrote

Enough4me · 27/10/2021 16:16

When I think about my clear preferences, I cannot understand why lesbians should be denied their preferences.

I won't date women and cannot be coerced into it, I don't find them sexually attractive. I cannot count how many dates and relationships I've been on with men over my dating years, but don't feel like I've missed out on dating women, nor should I be more open minded. I know what vaginas are, I have one and I like penetrative sex.

Am I a transphobe as I want homosexual people to retain their preferences and don't have any intention of having relationships with women, including TM?

If I am, fine stick that label on me as I'd rather be labelled a transphobe than be sexually manipulative or sexually manipulated.

FindTheTruth · 27/10/2021 16:16

I like how the previous thread ended.

"Women say no"

👏👏👏👏👏👏

FindTheTruth · 27/10/2021 16:19

"These women who want to form relationships with other biological women are feeling bad about that. How did we get here?

Gendered Intelligence trained Stonewall in the new religion, Stonewall changed direction without telling anyone and our foremost LGB charity helped to ersase lesbian spaces, shame lesbians for being lesbians and now likens lesbians to racists.

LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 16:20

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Erm, at the risk of starting an argument with someone I seem to pretty much agree with... surely your ex-boss has always been bisexual, it's just you (and maybe them) didn;t realise!

At risk of fanning those flames.. I said "hitherto". She never mentioned anything, was previously married with kids, didn't willingly end that relationship.

So, no idea. Anything is possible.

I was agreeing with you. But you seem to be looking for the Room for an Arguement Smile

Fair!
ArabellaScott · 27/10/2021 16:20

We've had this discussion before about consent and attraction.

The idea that it's wrong to 'exclude' people from your 'dating pool' operates on the assumption that the default is to be open to being sexually engaged with everyone, and that we then remove or exclude people from the pool.

That, I think, is fallacious for most. One could almost call it rapey - consent operates on a basis of 'no' as starting point, and seeks enthusiastic, informed consent. It does not start with 'yes' as a presumed starting point and then strike people out or find valid reasons to strike them out. There have been campaigns on consent that have sought to make this very point. (Consent is not about saying 'no', it's about saying 'yes').

The default is neutral - not feeling attraction. It's a small minority that most people find attractive. Vanishingly small, even. Out of the hundreds of people we walk past/encounter, only a very tiny fraction will be attractive.

FindTheTruth · 27/10/2021 16:24

TWEET
@RoseOfDawn

The responses to this article (which I was interviewed for) are typical: “It’s extreme transphobia!” cry the people who believe ANY deviation from their position is nothing but hatred.

Fact is, this does happen. It happened to a friend of mine.

I should note that this friend isn’t right wing in the slightest (I know it’ll be brought up). She’s incredibly progressive and is in agreement with almost every TRA position.

But it happened to her. The reaction to an article daring to talk about it is why she’s anonymous.

BoreOfWhabylon · 27/10/2021 16:27

David Thompson
@dt_ni
There was some abuse when we - two men - released a podcast looking at Stonewall's lobbying on sex and gender issues, but not a lot. It's our job to cover contested issues.

Contrast that with the treatment of Caroline Lowbridge, a female journalist, also just doing her job.
2:20 pm · 27 Oct 2021·Twitter Web App

twitter.com/dt_ni/status/1453350853558116360?s=20

FEEDBACK TO BBC
www.bbc.co.uk/contact/comments

FindTheTruth · 27/10/2021 16:27

fine stick that label on me as I'd rather be labelled a transphobe than be sexually manipulative or sexually manipulated.

many lesbians have reached this point. But it's so hard for young teenagers and early 20's to stand up to the risk of being ostracised and abused.

Lammysaurus · 27/10/2021 16:29

Ash Sarkar's Twitter comments are misleading: "I wouldn't want someone to feel they had to have sex with me out of social pressure, but it'd be fair to ask whether racism plays a part in announcing every 5mins that they'd never sleep with a woman of colour."

Leaving aside her homophobia not bothering to understand sexual orientation, there's no indication that anyone interviewed for the BBC article was constantly commenting or making announcements along the lines of "I'd never sleep with a transwoman". In fact, the opposite seems the case: most of the women interviewed who'd experienced coercion had bent over backwards to try not to offend and even to try to accomodate the other person's desire for sexual contact or a sexual relationship. Ignoring this and painting the women as some kind of outspoken, proactive harrassers is just false, completely lacking in empathy, and comes uncomfortably close to rape apologism and normalisation of rape culture.

I don't know any lesbians who go around saying every five minutes that they'd never sleep with a man, let alone a transwoman. In the giddyness of first realising you're a lesbian (or a gay man, if applicable) sure, you might say it a bit, but it gets old pretty fast. If it happened with such frequency in a particular case, I'd wonder if there might be something that person is responding to, not just saying it every five minutes out of the blue.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 27/10/2021 16:30

As my dad once said to me 'you can't choose who you fall in with and you can't make somebody love you.'

He was talking about marriage but you can easily adapt it to 'you can't choose who you fancy and you can't make somebody fancy you.'

Obviously, you can choose who you date, but I think that our sexual attractions and preferences are not something that we can consciously 'choose' or change but, rather, they are innate.

MedusasBadHairDay · 27/10/2021 16:30

I grew up hearing that your sexuality was something you were born with, from organisations like Stonewall, and that those suggesting peoples sexual orientation was affected by society and therefore could be changed were the bigots. How have we strayed so far from that?

FindTheTruth · 27/10/2021 16:30

[quote BoreOfWhabylon]David Thompson
@dt_ni
There was some abuse when we - two men - released a podcast looking at Stonewall's lobbying on sex and gender issues, but not a lot. It's our job to cover contested issues.

Contrast that with the treatment of Caroline Lowbridge, a female journalist, also just doing her job.
2:20 pm · 27 Oct 2021·Twitter Web App

twitter.com/dt_ni/status/1453350853558116360?s=20

FEEDBACK TO BBC
www.bbc.co.uk/contact/comments[/quote]
They see it. I'm glad. Hope there are more podcasts

FindTheTruth · 27/10/2021 16:34

most of the women interviewed who'd experienced coercion had bent over backwards to try not to offend and even to try to accomodate the other person's desire for sexual contact or a sexual relationship. Ignoring this and painting the women as some kind of outspoken, proactive harrassers is just false, completely lacking in empathy, and comes uncomfortably close to rape apologism and normalisation of rape culture

This is what's so rage inducing. It's the social conditioning of conversion culture / rape culture / nodebate. Standing up for yourself and setting boundaries as a young person is hard enough but the community now is full of people afraid to offend while the TRAs strip away boundaries. it's like the prisoner camp thing @PurgatoryOfPotholes shared

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 16:36

@IfNot

She was desperate to ‘protect’ me for something I didn’t need protecting from, and outraged that I wasn’t outraged. It was really bizarre. I pointed out that some lesbians do have relationships with trans people, in my experience, and that it was none of my or her business. But what do I know?. I’ve only been a lesbian and active in LGBT+ life, communities and scenes for 35 years

Not meaning to be rude, but maybe the fact that you are over 50 is why you haven't had to deal with men trying to get in your pants? I mean, men in general aren't generally harassing grown women, it's usually young girls the creeps go for. Just because it's not hapened to you doesn't mean it's not happening to young lesbians. Why don't you beleive them?

Seconded.

To quote Lucy Masoud.

'My experience of what I'm seeing on the gay scene is that there are lots of very young lesbians, some very vulnerable at just 14, 15 or 16-years-old, who are obviously not attracted to biological men - hence they're lesbians - who are being coerced into dating trans women.

Lucy continued: 'I'm a 43-year-old woman and can tell someone to f*off, whereas young lesbians, who are just coming out of the closest and want to be a part of the community - the gay community which has become the queer community - which is dominated by straight men...it's those people I really worry for.

It's those people who are being coerced, just like the article says, into having sex with people they don't want to have sex with because they want to fit in.'

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-10132549/Lesbian-claims-shes-seen-people-identify-trans-women-bully-young-girls-relationship.html

OP posts:
CharlieParley · 27/10/2021 16:38

This was Nancy Kelley, head of Stonewall yesterday, after her statement was published dismissing the concerns of lesbians pressured for not accepting male members of the trans community as sexual partners. Her contribution to the online -self-id crowd swinging into action to dismiss lesbians talking about their lived experiences:

Today, as every day, my love and solidarity to trans people. And today, as every day is a good day to listen to trans people when they talk about their lives. Including the brilliant @christineburns*. #LWithTheT

Enough4me · 27/10/2021 16:50

I think this has been asked before, but still don't understand, if TW can specify that sexually they just want vaginas, why can't lesbians also specify that they just want vaginas?

VladmirsPoutine · 27/10/2021 16:54

@Enough4me Good question. I actually stopped in my tracks once when I came across the female penis.

CharlieParley · 27/10/2021 16:54

In stark contrast to the head of Stonewall, the TwoXXChromosomes subreddit, which has gone the same way as all other previously women and/or lesbian only spaces, is having a much better discussion around this article. It doesn't start with denial. The top voted comment is by a lesbian who says it happened to her.

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.md/2021.10.26-183131/www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/qg5ps9/were_being_pressured_into_sex_by_some_trans_women/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">archive.md/2021.10.26-183131/www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/qg5ps9/were_being_pressured_into_sex_by_some_trans_women/

(Saw this highlighted on Ovarit)

crumpet · 27/10/2021 16:58

I am also uncomfortable with the references to bisexuality, which imply that bisexuals may not be able to say no to sex with trans people. Bisexual people have just as much right as anyone else to decide who they might want to to sleep with.

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