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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I don't want to add my pronouns at the end of an email, but I can't explain why...

163 replies

MrsPsmalls · 20/10/2021 14:54

Just that really. NHS and we've been encouraged by people who have had 'training' to add our pronouns. I'm a woman and mine are she her. I could do this but I don't want to. I said as much to the inclusivity person. She actually works for me and inclusivity is an add on to her regular job. She said I should as it makes it easier for trans people who want to add theirs. Should I just do it? Obvs she can't make me as I am her manager, but I have created unpleasantness. I don't care how I'm referred to and have never been wrongly pronouned!

OP posts:
AnneLovesGilbert · 20/10/2021 14:57

What about trans or non-binary people who aren’t ready to disclose theirs? How’s trying to mandate this supportive of them?

There’s no need for unpleasantness. As you say, she can’t make you and it’s not the law.

This was published today, might help explain your feelings and how to approach it:

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/pronouns/

MrsPsmalls · 20/10/2021 14:59

Actually that's really helpful - thanks

OP posts:
Gncq · 20/10/2021 15:00

I'd say it's because I don't really believe in gender ideology. If others want to believe in it of course they can but not everyone should be forced into it.

RedDogsBeg · 20/10/2021 15:01

If you don't want to do it, don't do it you do not have to explain or justify your choice, this is still (arguably) a free and democratic country not a totalitarian dictatorship with compelled speech.

Not all trans people want to out themselves by adding their pronouns so by enforcing it as your colleague is suggesting is also forcing a trans person to publicly declare their status whether they want to or not, hardly the definition of 'inclusive'.

HollyandIvyandAllThingsYule · 20/10/2021 15:03

Being encouraged means nothing. Pay absolutely no attention. If you want to give a reason you can (and the more people do, the more it will be heard and understood that actually, most people do not want to and do not agree with this), but you don’t have to justify it.

mynameisnotkate · 20/10/2021 15:04

If this comes up, I just say I’m not comfortable sharing my pronouns. No one challenges this. If I’m in an environment where I know people a bit I’ll explain this is because it will increase the unconscious bias and stereotype threat I experience as a women and therefore I don’t think it’s fair to ask me to. But often I don’t elaborate. I’d love to take a bolder stance on this but it could lead to a lot of trouble for me. But under no circumstances am I prepared to add my pronouns.

MrsTerryPratchett · 20/10/2021 15:05

I regularly get emails from someone in a professional capacity who has pronouns, rainbow flag, BLM, quotes and bunting (OK not the last one). On all replies as well. Try printing an email exchange for a file! It's pages!

What people need to know in an email is my contact details and whatever the email is about.

Also there's all the evidence that drawing attention to your female sex worsens your performance and how people perceive it. Lose lose.

NecessaryScene · 20/10/2021 15:05

She said I should as it makes it easier for trans people who want to add theirs.

Tell her she should take hers off as it makes it easier for women who don't want to add theirs.

AnneLovesGilbert · 20/10/2021 15:07

If pushed you could say you haven’t yet decided on your gender identity.

But you’re honestly not obliged to take part in this new unnecessary thing people are doing. The reason you don’t want to do it is that you’re not buying into gender identity ideology. If you’re a woman you also know that advertising your sex makes you more likely to experience discrimination and the pay gap. All sensible reasons if hard to articulate in the face of the inclusion police. Inclusion isn’t working if it’s not including the people who don’t believe in gender woo. Which is most people. But the current climate is making it awkward to say so.

Hold firm.

MrsPsmalls · 20/10/2021 15:07

Of course you are right, about trans people often not wanting to do this! I get a lot of emails with pronouns on. In every single instance they reflect the biological sex of the person. Either we employ no trans people, or they too are avoiding doing this.

OP posts:
Blessex · 20/10/2021 15:07

@NecessaryScene great response

FindTheTruth · 20/10/2021 15:08

I don't want to add pronouns to my signature, because:

  1. The pronoun refers to a gender identity and not sex. I don't have a gender identity and should NOT be forced to pretend I have a gender identity. gender identity and sex are not the same thing.

  2. Other adults are entitled to believe in this philosophy or any other religious belief as is their human right. But it is quite wrong for the workplace to force me to declare I believe in a philosophy or religious belief.

  3. the moment I see pronouns in signatures, badges and starting work meetings, my heart rate elevates and my stomach drops as I know I'm in a hostile environment. I feel unsafe and risk being cancelled, de-platformed, falsely called hateful or could even lose my job.

  4. It goes beyond a pronoun and is a political statement and signifies acceptance of a wider philosophical belief that gender is more important than (and in fact replaces) sex. It belongs to lobby groups who campaign to remove sex from the equality act. I would declare any belief at work political, spiritual, philosophical or religious.

FindTheTruth · 20/10/2021 15:09

Good one @NecessaryScene 👍

OvaHere · 20/10/2021 15:10

A useful thread

twitter.com/TidyStewart/status/1446831103789211650

threader.app/thread/1446831103789211650

A virtual work meeting. The facilitator asked us all to share our name and pronouns. Of the 13 people present, the only ones to share their ‘she/her’ pronouns were obvious women. None of the men present did. Other than the initial request, there was no pressure. 1/6

One of the women already had pronouns displayed in her username. The effect of this was to create a really odd sense that the women had made a submissive gesture and the men had not. 2/6

In discussions at work about pronouns, the solution proposed to this has often been to ‘normalize declaring pronouns’ so that everyone feels they should comply with the request. So the women are attempting to ‘model’ this compliance. So far, so gendered. 3/6

When I have been in meetings where a man does declare he/him-ness, it simply exacerbates this sense of domination vs compliance. You have a woman underlining that she is a woman & a man announcing that he is a man. It underscores disparities & does nothing to dispel them. 4/6

I still do not comply, but this particular meeting was the first time I had felt the swivel of curious eyes on me for not announcing that I was a woman, while there were none scrutinizing the men who felt free to disregard the silly request. 5/6

It spoke chillingly to me about how pronoun culture is a tool that reinforces sexism and inequality. The men still spoke over the women and dominated the discussion too. So it was just like any other mixed sex meeting, except the women had signalled their submission first. 6/6

FindTheTruth · 20/10/2021 15:11

*I would NOT declare any belief at work political, spiritual, philosophical or religious.

TreXX · 20/10/2021 15:11

Just ignore it, what's she gonna do?

Just a couple of people in my org have started with the she/her thing (both very obviously women). I doubt I'll ever be forced to but if it came to that my pronouns will be N/A or X/X

Shehasadiamondinthesky · 20/10/2021 15:13

I don't want to is enough of a reason for me.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 20/10/2021 15:16

For me, it is compelled speech and signals compliance with an ideology from which I dissent.

All of the following is quoted from Vaclav Havel's 1978 essay where he has some prescient observations about mantras and the unthinking adoption of an ideology and the true cost of the absolution that it confers.

In an era when metaphysical and existential certainties are in a state of crisis, when people are being uprooted and alienated and are losing their sense of what this world means, this ideology inevitably has a certain hypnotic charm. To wandering humankind it offers an immediately available home: all one has to do is accept it, and suddenly everything becomes clear once more, life takes on new meaning, and all mysteries, unanswered questions, anxiety, and loneliness vanish. Of course, one pays dearly for this low-rent home: the price is abdication of one’ s own reason, conscience, and responsibility, for an essential aspect of this ideology is the consignment of reason and conscience to a higher authority.

The manager of a fruit-and-vegetable shop places in his window, among the onions and carrots, the slogan: "Workers of the world, unite!" Why does he do it? What is he trying to communicate to the world? Is he genuinely enthusiastic about the idea of unity among the workers of the world? Is his enthusiasm so great that he feels an irrepressible impulse to acquaint the public with his ideals? Has he really given more than a moment's thought to how such a unification might occur and what it would mean?

I think it can safely be assumed that the overwhelming majority of shopkeepers never think about the slogans they put in their windows, nor do they use them to express their real opinions. That poster was delivered to our greengrocer from the enterprise headquarters along with the onions and carrots. He put them all into the window simply because it has been done that way for years, because everyone does it, and because that is the way it has to be. If he were to refuse, there could be trouble. He could be reproached for not having the proper decoration in his window; someone might even accuse him of disloyalty. He does it because these things must be done if one is to get along in life. It is one of the thousands of details that guarantee him a relatively tranquil life "in harmony with society," as they say.

Obviously the greengrocer is indifferent to the semantic content of the slogan on exhibit; he does not put the slogan in his window from any personal desire to acquaint the public with the ideal it expresses. This, of course, does not mean that his action has no motive or significance at all, or that the slogan communicates nothing to anyone. The slogan is really a sign, and as such it contains a subliminal but very definite message. Verbally, it might be expressed this way: "I, the greengrocer XY, live here and I know what I must do. I behave in the manner expected of me. I can be depended upon and am beyond reproach. I am obedient and therefore I have the right to be left in peace." This message, of course, has an addressee: it is directed above, to the greengrocer's superior, and at the same time it is a shield that protects the greengrocer from potential informers. The slogan's real meaning, therefore, is rooted firmly in the greengrocer's existence. It reflects his vital interests. But what are those vital interests?

Let us take note: if the greengrocer had been instructed to display the slogan "I am afraid and therefore unquestioningly obedient;' he would not be nearly as indifferent to its semantics, even though the statement would reflect the truth.

hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/the-power-of-the-powerless-vaclav-havel-2011-12-23

CornishGem1975 · 20/10/2021 15:19

@Shehasadiamondinthesky

I don't want to is enough of a reason for me.
This.
Tidyspy · 20/10/2021 15:19

I said I would prefer not to for personal reasons and left it at that (work for a not for profit, not NHS). Nothing more was said. As your her manager, could you say similar - you’re choosing not to, and others in your team can include them or not. I wouldn’t get drawn into giving more reasons or any kind of debate.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 20/10/2021 15:23

Just say you feel uncomfortable adding your pronouns at this time. And refer them to the relevant section of the Yogyakarta principles about not requiring people to share their pronouns

HollyandIvyandAllThingsYule · 20/10/2021 15:26

@FindTheTruth

*I would NOT declare any belief at work political, spiritual, philosophical or religious.
This is what my reasoning would be - it’s important to reference overarching principles.
EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 20/10/2021 15:27

Other issues aside, it contravenes Yogyakarta Principle 6f if you're pushed for a reason.

6f (Principle 6 is all about LGBT people's right to privacy) states:

Ensure the right of all persons ordinarily to choose when, to whom and how to disclose information pertaining to their sexual orientation or gender identity, and protect all persons from arbitrary or unwanted disclosure, or threat of disclosure of such information by others.

You could then say: I don't feel comfortable making these disclosures about myself and you should not be nudging me to do so.

This is an appropriate workaround for anyone who is not in a workplace that would support a 'protected belief' or 'I dissent from gender ideology' discussion.

Justme56 · 20/10/2021 15:33

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58924168?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA

Considering the abuse and threats that female people get online I would never make a point of putting she/her pronouns anywhere. It only draws attention to the fact that you are a woman.