I don't want to add my pronouns at the end of an email, but I can't explain why...

[MrsPsmalls]

Just that really. NHS and we've been encouraged by people who have had 'training' to add our pronouns. I'm a woman and mine are she her. I could do this but I don't want to. I said as much to the inclusivity person. She actually works for me and inclusivity is an add on to her regular job. She said I should as it makes it easier for trans people who want to add theirs. Should I just do it? Obvs she can't make me as I am her manager, but I have created unpleasantness. I don't care how I'm referred to and have never been wrongly pronouned!

I have chosen not to list my pronouns as I feel that by doing so I become less approachable for gender-critical staff. Inclusion is very important for me, so I respect the choices others make about pronoun declaration, and I take care to treat trans colleagues respectfully.

[quote EarthSight]@Itsanewdah

it’s absolutely your choice, but others around you aren’t mind readers either

You're quite right, because most people use visual information or someone's name in order to guess someone's pronouns, not telepathy.[/quote]
This made me laugh out loud.

I'd be tempted to ask her - tempted, but wouldn't unless she really pushed me - if she thinks that sexuality should also be added on email signatures so homo- or bisexual people didn't feel left out by people assuming they're straight. After all, apparently T is just another part of LGB.

And if not, why not?

Could it be that adding labels (other than job title) to signatures increases the chance of discrimination?

She said I should as it makes it easier for trans people who want to add theirs.

Why does she think their preferred pronouns are difficult to discern?

@PurpleOkapi

Nothing I add to my email signature will change how anyone else identifies, nor should it. What's more, if someone can't figure out from my name and image that I'm female, I view that as their problem. I legit don't care if I get referred to as the wrong pronoun. People who think including their pronouns will somehow make their lives easier are free to do so, but I'm not a therapist and making them feel better about that choice isn't in my job description.

Couldn't agree more with the final sentence - not my job to validate other people's belief in an unscientific, contentious ideology.

I’m not english, how am I supposed to know that Ciaran is “he” or “willow” is usually “she”.

If it’s really unclear and sex is relevant you just ask.

This isn’t a new issue.

Haven't RTFY (about to go to work) but two points.

Firstly, @MrsPsmalls, you didn't cause the unpleasantness. You were put on the spot by someone. They can't expect everyone to roll over and obey.

Secondly, I dropped one of the DC at uni a few weeks back. I couldn't help but notice that about two thirds of the young women welcoming the freshers had 'she/her' badges (as though it wasn't completely obvious) and NONE of the young men I saw did, and nor did the male staff member on duty. In practice, this has become another way of obliging women (as in XX people) to beeee kiiind and think of others, without the XY people feeling any need to bother.

Fucks me off massively. What are we doing to our young people?

OP, I really think this policy hasn’t been thought through, and I find this worrying given that you work in the NHS.

Presumably you come across people from a variety of different backgrounds with diverse beliefs every day.

I would guess that in other instances you are encouraged to accommodate beliefs when possible, particularly where this enables better care, but that there is no expectation that a particular belief will be endorsed.

Your colleague seems to be suggesting a policy that only endorses the beliefs of one group, (people who have specific beliefs about gender identity) which surely leads to enforced conformity and exclusion?

[quote Itsanewdah]@MrsTerryPratchett they told me. We talk ;) I like cis, so I use it. They use the descriptor, so its ok with them. I like pronouns, so I use it. I don’t know if you are cis or trans, and I wouldn’t assume. It doesn’t matter and the end, you are who you are.
If you don’t want to use the terms, I respect that, but I also expect you to respect my choices.[/quote]
I hate the term CIS, it implies biological women are a subset of women rather than just being women. It's used to push us down and widen our group to include some biological men.

I'm not CIS and I'm not trans.

I don't believe in enforcing stereotypes and old fashions pink for girls stuff.

I'm a woman because my body is female. I don't wear makeup and I ride a motorbike. I am not a man because I make some choices that others would ascribe to masculine traits.

I am offended when someone uses the term CIS. It isn't a neutral term, it implies that I kowtow to old fashioned sexist beliefs and through internal misogyny accept this idea of gender that means I'm supposed to be sweet and kind and nice.

I will not be wrapped in pink and labelled as a subtype of my own sex.

Hopefully @Itsanewdah asks every single person every single time before referring to them as cis - whether they're present or not?

'Cause otherwise that would be literal something, surely.

I'm actually finding it very difficult to believe that someone entirely happy with cis, and chatting about pronouns, and happy gender discussions is going to get pissed off because they were missexed accidentally. Sorry but that sounds bollocks.

Well, Itsanewdah describes it as a multicultural environment, so I assume the people who are asserting that their gender identity is 'cis' and are getting upset about being misgendered are from cultures with rigid gender stereotypes where it would be deeply insulting for a man to be mistaken for a woman because women's lower social status is so ingrained.

There are lots of cultures where viewing someone as trans is far more palatable than accepting that it's ok if they don't conform to gender stereotypes or are homosexual, so it kind of makes sense in that context.

Tell her she should take hers off as it makes it easier for women who don't want to add theirs.

This!

@merrymouse

I’m not english, how am I supposed to know that Ciaran is “he” or “willow” is usually “she”.

If it’s really unclear and sex is relevant you just ask.

This isn’t a new issue.

I usually just google the name and see what images come up...

Luckily, the pronoun thing has not reached my worplace yet. I work in medical research so I am hoping that logic prevails, but who knows...

So far I have only been asked my pronouns at a research interview about abortion (of all subjects!). I did say that I am a woman because I am one, not because I identify as one. The interviewer who was obviously female and had hers in her zoom name, just smiled. Possibly condescendingly.

Requiring pronouns forces people to out themselves at work before they are ready.

Requiring pronouns has been shown to disadvantage women in the workplace.

It is easy enough to avoid personal pronouns in most circumstances and pronouns are never required when replying to a person by email.

So it is really pointless but also potentially harmful to several minority groups.

I dislike getting emails from men with their pronouns it comes over like willy waving, and a bit mansplainy

I dislike getting emails from men with their pronouns it comes over like willy waving, and a bit mansplainy

Yes, I agree - it's comes across as "I know you don't know because we're on email, so just to reassure you: I am a man and therefore do know what I'm talking about,"

Even though obviously no-one means for it to come across this way, it's so shit for women because most of us experience negative messaging around being a woman every day of our lives, so to be reminded of women's oppression, when we just want to be treated like a competent accountant or an engineer or whatever, is so disheartening. The men who aren't arrogant pricks obviously have no idea what it's like for women, as why would they?

I find that many of the people who think stating their pronouns, etc is inclusive seem to believe we're living in a post-misogynistic society and that sexism is solved now because "women have the same rights as men". Just because they'd like it to be the case, it doesn't make it true - I think lots of people think it perpetuates sexism to point it out, so instead they pretend it doesn't exist, in the misguided view that it's the inclusive thing to do to pretend women have equality.

I would refuse on the basis that I do not have any pronouns, if my company mandated such things.

I’d refuse because it’s stupid. If you call me ‘Mr’ I don’t give a rats. If you call me ‘he’ you are making some pretty wild assumptions. Either way, I would correct and move on (and think you a fool).

I’m too old, and too old-school feminist to put up with this.

I find that many of the people who think stating their pronouns, etc is inclusive seem to believe we're living in a post-misogynistic society and that sexism is solved now because "women have the same rights as men".

10 years ago there would be at least a thread a week on this board from an MRA (or Dominic Raab with time on his hands??) putting forward this argument.

The only thing that has changed is that the people making the argument now identify as progressive.

Perhaps because, since third person pronouns are rarely used in your presence, you don't feel the need to control conversations that you are not part of? Why does anyone?

@squishee

Perhaps because, since third person pronouns are rarely used in your presence, you don't feel the need to control conversations that you are not part of? Why does anyone?

I had to write an email today in which I was introducing members of different departments to eachother.

Because they belong to departments with a high uptake of pronouns in the email signature, I was faced with checking through the details of 20+ people in order to write a brief description of them and their responsibilities in order to crosscheck that I was using these pronouns. I ended up writing a somewhat odd piece of text instead so that I could avoid pronouns. I felt the burden of getting this right because I'm senior to everyone involved and I didn't want to be reported for any misuse/oversight.

It's actually made me reconsider the overhead of doing something like this in the future because an optional task that held no value for me but potentially did for the recipients could easily have turned into a 1hour+ task.

I've never understood the logic of this. If transpeople want to be identified as a woman (for example) they take a woman's name don't they? So everyone knows to call them "she/her" without them putting it in their email signature 🤷‍♀️

"I'm really sorry but it makes me uncomfortable, I dont want to get into it." You could also say how it's like how you don't want to put other personal information.

@parttimemary

I've never understood the logic of this. If transpeople want to be identified as a woman (for example) they take a woman's name don't they? So everyone knows to call them "she/her" without them putting it in their email signature 🤷‍♀️

That might be OK for the transgender people who don't also claim non-binary status. There are people who identify both as trans and non-binary who may state pronouns that are different to the presentation.

@BiscuitLover09876

"I'm really sorry but it makes me uncomfortable, I dont want to get into it." You could also say how it's like how you don't want to put other personal information.

No need for the really sorry bit, why is any apology necessary? It's not. This is half the fucking problem - being conciliatory and apologetic, there is nothing wrong with a straightforward 'No', that is all that is required - no apology or justification is warranted.

In all honesty I feel like I have spent most of my working life as a woman battling to survive in a Male dominated environment. I will be damned if I'm going to draw extra attention to my sexy as result. It is irrelevant to my ability to do my job and I have spent my whole career proving that. If someone isn't sure of my pronouns then A they are fucking stupid and B they can ask me