Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I don't want to add my pronouns at the end of an email, but I can't explain why...

163 replies

MrsPsmalls · 20/10/2021 14:54

Just that really. NHS and we've been encouraged by people who have had 'training' to add our pronouns. I'm a woman and mine are she her. I could do this but I don't want to. I said as much to the inclusivity person. She actually works for me and inclusivity is an add on to her regular job. She said I should as it makes it easier for trans people who want to add theirs. Should I just do it? Obvs she can't make me as I am her manager, but I have created unpleasantness. I don't care how I'm referred to and have never been wrongly pronouned!

OP posts:
IamAporcupine · 21/10/2021 20:19

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

That might be OK for the transgender people who don't also claim non-binary status. There are people who identify both as trans and non-binary who may state pronouns that are different to the presentation.

How can anyone identify as trans and non-binary?! So they claim that their 'gender identity' does not 'align' with their sex (ie they 'feel' as if they were the opposite sex) yet they do not identify as male or female either?!

KittenKong · 21/10/2021 20:22

Ask them to describe the taste of water (imagining the other person hasn’t ever tasted water).

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 21/10/2021 20:37

How can anyone identify as trans and non-binary?!

I'm merely reporting what we've seen. I can not begin to claim it's a coherent viewpoint or one that I intuitively grasp beyond the fact that people assert it.

However, I can understand if people see non-binary as a category under the general 'transgender' umbrella.

foxgoosefinch · 21/10/2021 21:22

Yeah, logically trans ideology is the opposite of non binary and vice versa, but they don’t seem to see it!

MrsTerryPratchett · 21/10/2021 21:40

Surely non-binary and agender are just GNC and young. I mean we're all trans according to the widest interpretation. Unless there are really real pink-unicorn-weak-submissive-cupcake-Prosecco-housework-girly-girls out there. I've never seen one in its natural habitat.

IamAporcupine · 22/10/2021 09:12

@MrsTerryPratchett

Surely non-binary and agender are just GNC and young. I mean we're all trans according to the widest interpretation. Unless there are really real pink-unicorn-weak-submissive-cupcake-Prosecco-housework-girly-girls out there. I've never seen one in its natural habitat.
That was exactly what I was thinking - if the massive transgeder umbrella includes those women (or men) that do not 'identify' with being a (stereotipical) woman (or man), but who can also 'express' their gender as a mix of femininity and masculinity - surely that's everyone?
Pterfodactyl · 22/10/2021 10:20

@MrsPsmalls I have not read all your thread, but this has just landed in my in box. Sex Matters is the organisation founded by Maya Forstater, and which is doing absolutely sterling work for GC women (please support them if you can). Hopefully this guide will be of some help to you and others.

Sex Matters Guide to Pronouns at Work

Pterfodactyl · 22/10/2021 10:21

And apologies if this is a repeat link.

squishee · 22/10/2021 16:33

*EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

I had to write an email today in which I was introducing members of different departments to eachother.

Because they belong to departments with a high uptake of pronouns in the email signature, I was faced with checking through the details of 20+ people in order to write a brief description of them and their responsibilities in order to crosscheck that I was using these pronouns. I ended up writing a somewhat odd piece of text instead so that I could avoid pronouns. I felt the burden of getting this right because I'm senior to everyone involved and I didn't want to be reported for any misuse/oversight.

It's actually made me reconsider the overhead of doing something like this in the future because an optional task that held no value for me but potentially did for the recipients could easily have turned into a 1hour+ task*

Hmm, yes I hadn't thought about that scenario.

How about dropping the pronouns altogether?
'Joe Bloggs is Jobtitle in the Whatever department. Bloggs' remit is This and That. Feel free to approach Joe with any queries.'

Immunetypegoblin · 22/10/2021 16:51

[quote EmbarrassingHadrosaurus]For me, it is compelled speech and signals compliance with an ideology from which I dissent.

All of the following is quoted from Vaclav Havel's 1978 essay where he has some prescient observations about mantras and the unthinking adoption of an ideology and the true cost of the absolution that it confers.

In an era when metaphysical and existential certainties are in a state of crisis, when people are being uprooted and alienated and are losing their sense of what this world means, this ideology inevitably has a certain hypnotic charm. To wandering humankind it offers an immediately available home: all one has to do is accept it, and suddenly everything becomes clear once more, life takes on new meaning, and all mysteries, unanswered questions, anxiety, and loneliness vanish. Of course, one pays dearly for this low-rent home: the price is abdication of one’ s own reason, conscience, and responsibility, for an essential aspect of this ideology is the consignment of reason and conscience to a higher authority.

The manager of a fruit-and-vegetable shop places in his window, among the onions and carrots, the slogan: "Workers of the world, unite!" Why does he do it? What is he trying to communicate to the world? Is he genuinely enthusiastic about the idea of unity among the workers of the world? Is his enthusiasm so great that he feels an irrepressible impulse to acquaint the public with his ideals? Has he really given more than a moment's thought to how such a unification might occur and what it would mean?

I think it can safely be assumed that the overwhelming majority of shopkeepers never think about the slogans they put in their windows, nor do they use them to express their real opinions. That poster was delivered to our greengrocer from the enterprise headquarters along with the onions and carrots. He put them all into the window simply because it has been done that way for years, because everyone does it, and because that is the way it has to be. If he were to refuse, there could be trouble. He could be reproached for not having the proper decoration in his window; someone might even accuse him of disloyalty. He does it because these things must be done if one is to get along in life. It is one of the thousands of details that guarantee him a relatively tranquil life "in harmony with society," as they say.

Obviously the greengrocer is indifferent to the semantic content of the slogan on exhibit; he does not put the slogan in his window from any personal desire to acquaint the public with the ideal it expresses. This, of course, does not mean that his action has no motive or significance at all, or that the slogan communicates nothing to anyone. The slogan is really a sign, and as such it contains a subliminal but very definite message. Verbally, it might be expressed this way: "I, the greengrocer XY, live here and I know what I must do. I behave in the manner expected of me. I can be depended upon and am beyond reproach. I am obedient and therefore I have the right to be left in peace." This message, of course, has an addressee: it is directed above, to the greengrocer's superior, and at the same time it is a shield that protects the greengrocer from potential informers. The slogan's real meaning, therefore, is rooted firmly in the greengrocer's existence. It reflects his vital interests. But what are those vital interests?

Let us take note: if the greengrocer had been instructed to display the slogan "I am afraid and therefore unquestioningly obedient;' he would not be nearly as indifferent to its semantics, even though the statement would reflect the truth.

hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/the-power-of-the-powerless-vaclav-havel-2011-12-23[/quote]
This is wonderful, thank you for the link.

berlinbabylon · 22/10/2021 21:38

If I had the nerve I would put something like "she's the cat's mother, kindly use my name" on my email signature.

berlinbabylon · 22/10/2021 21:41

@squishee

Perhaps because, since third person pronouns are rarely used in your presence, you don't feel the need to control conversations that you are not part of? Why does anyone?
Quite.
Jux · 23/10/2021 17:32

It constitutes a political statement which has no place in your working environment, just as you would not add your party affiliation if you had one - imagine having to put "Conservative/Green/BNP as part of your email signature and having to "explain" (justify) why you would rather not.....

Brefugee · 23/10/2021 22:00

"I'm really sorry but it makes me uncomfortable, I dont want to get into it." You could also say how it's like how you don't want to put other personal information.

Nope. Nope. NOPE.

as other pp have mentioned, i've spent around 40 years mostly in male dominated industries fighting a bloody hard fight, and making only incremental progress compared to less good men, to throw it all away now with a "she/her" at the bottom of my email.

One of the ways i do this is "think, how would a man write this?" on all correspondence. And the word "sorry" is always the first to go. I delete unnecessary greetings and "please" and "sorry" and "thank you" are the first to go. I absolutely refuse to take notes during meetings, i don't make tea or coffee, i barely ever mention my children and i don't bring in cakes unless it's my birthday. I sign off either "firstname lastname" or "initial lastname" and i have never ever made a comment if i get correspondence addressed to "mr".

Up to now i haven't been asked to add my pronouns, but there is no way i will. And i will just say "no, i won't be doing that" with no explanation and no apology. I am perfectly happy for others to do that, and am entirely happy to use whatever pronouns they want. But i won't be joining in.

I have worked with a lot of Asian companies over the years and it is mostly not clear, when they're not using western names, if they are male or female. I tend not to address them as "mr" unless i know for sure, and try to use gender neutral language until i do know. But that's just my preference.

Brefugee · 23/10/2021 22:01

Having said all that. I often encounter emails (and previously letters and faxes) that ended with Eastern European First Name Last name (Mrs) which is also fine.

DdraigGoch · 23/10/2021 22:43

[quote Itsanewdah]@foxgoosefinch i’ve heard more than one office temper tantrum about people being called he/Mr if they saw themselves as she/Ms, and the other way round. So tell me if its important to you! If not, who cares.[/quote]
I prefer to ignore toddlers tantruming in the middle of supermarket aisles. I thought that grown-ups had gone past the stage of throwing a tantrum to get their own way. Obviously not.

Brefugee · 24/10/2021 07:51

Yeah, i used to have a boss who threw an absolute wobbler if she ever got a letter (pre email) addressed to Mr. But as i used to point out to her: nobody expects a woman MD. You are forging a path. (she was an arse but it was the easiest way to get her to STFU)

PurpleOkapi · 24/10/2021 08:13

@merrymouse

I’m not english, how am I supposed to know that Ciaran is “he” or “willow” is usually “she”.

If it’s really unclear and sex is relevant you just ask.

This isn’t a new issue.

Do what I do when corresponding with non-English names I don't recognize: plug the first name into Facebook's search and see which sex pops up in the results.
FindTheTruth · 24/10/2021 08:25

[quote Pterfodactyl]@MrsPsmalls I have not read all your thread, but this has just landed in my in box. Sex Matters is the organisation founded by Maya Forstater, and which is doing absolutely sterling work for GC women (please support them if you can). Hopefully this guide will be of some help to you and others.

Sex Matters Guide to Pronouns at Work[/quote]
This guide is the place to start

and as PP said, (if you're able to):
"Tell her she should take hers off as it makes it easier for women who don't want to add theirs."

dementedma · 24/10/2021 08:44

Annlovesgilbert, that's a useful link. Thanks.

QueenDanu · 24/10/2021 08:45

Place marking really. I haven't been asked yet, and dread that day. But when asked, I want to say something along the lines of gender is not binary it's fluid so i don't want to choose pronounces in a binary paradigm :-p

KittenKong · 24/10/2021 08:47

If compelled, mine will be short and rude.

QueenDanu · 24/10/2021 08:49

@FindTheTruth

I don't want to add pronouns to my signature, because:
  1. The pronoun refers to a gender identity and not sex. I don't have a gender identity and should NOT be forced to pretend I have a gender identity. gender identity and sex are not the same thing.

  2. Other adults are entitled to believe in this philosophy or any other religious belief as is their human right. But it is quite wrong for the workplace to force me to declare I believe in a philosophy or religious belief.

  3. the moment I see pronouns in signatures, badges and starting work meetings, my heart rate elevates and my stomach drops as I know I'm in a hostile environment. I feel unsafe and risk being cancelled, de-platformed, falsely called hateful or could even lose my job.

  4. It goes beyond a pronoun and is a political statement and signifies acceptance of a wider philosophical belief that gender is more important than (and in fact replaces) sex. It belongs to lobby groups who campaign to remove sex from the equality act. I would declare any belief at work political, spiritual, philosophical or religious.

3&4 are useful to have up my sleeve. 1&2 useful for the initial email to say no thanks. Thank you.
FindTheTruth · 24/10/2021 08:50

don't put pronouns in your email at work. don't be compelled. don't submit. don't be the cause of fear in another woman when she sees you use pronouns.

QueenDanu · 24/10/2021 08:50

@berlinbabylon

If I had the nerve I would put something like "she's the cat's mother, kindly use my name" on my email signature.
lol, that's funny. Exactly what they'd expect from me at work. Harder to cancel though.
Swipe left for the next trending thread