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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I don't want to add my pronouns at the end of an email, but I can't explain why...

163 replies

MrsPsmalls · 20/10/2021 14:54

Just that really. NHS and we've been encouraged by people who have had 'training' to add our pronouns. I'm a woman and mine are she her. I could do this but I don't want to. I said as much to the inclusivity person. She actually works for me and inclusivity is an add on to her regular job. She said I should as it makes it easier for trans people who want to add theirs. Should I just do it? Obvs she can't make me as I am her manager, but I have created unpleasantness. I don't care how I'm referred to and have never been wrongly pronouned!

OP posts:
Rainbowshit · 20/10/2021 15:33

yogyakartaprinciples.org/principle-6/

It goes against the Yogyakarta principles and ones right to privacy.

allmywhat · 20/10/2021 15:44

Just say you're not sure what your gender identity is and you don't want to commit to anything. And you're not sure if you'll ever be brave enough to come out publicly. But seeing she/her at the end of your emails would make you feel terrible.

You don't even have to lie. Being a bit wibbly and tremorous might help though.

MrsPsmalls · 20/10/2021 15:51

Haha, I'm not frightened by her she is a very 'kind' person trying to do her best! But I think it's misguided and helps no one. I don't buy into the belief system, but don't think I will be brave enough to say it though. I will probably just say I'm not comfortable doing so, together with hard stare inviting no further comment. The pressure for this nonsense does piss me off though.

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Etinoxaurus · 20/10/2021 15:58

[quote EmbarrassingHadrosaurus]For me, it is compelled speech and signals compliance with an ideology from which I dissent.

All of the following is quoted from Vaclav Havel's 1978 essay where he has some prescient observations about mantras and the unthinking adoption of an ideology and the true cost of the absolution that it confers.

In an era when metaphysical and existential certainties are in a state of crisis, when people are being uprooted and alienated and are losing their sense of what this world means, this ideology inevitably has a certain hypnotic charm. To wandering humankind it offers an immediately available home: all one has to do is accept it, and suddenly everything becomes clear once more, life takes on new meaning, and all mysteries, unanswered questions, anxiety, and loneliness vanish. Of course, one pays dearly for this low-rent home: the price is abdication of one’ s own reason, conscience, and responsibility, for an essential aspect of this ideology is the consignment of reason and conscience to a higher authority.

The manager of a fruit-and-vegetable shop places in his window, among the onions and carrots, the slogan: "Workers of the world, unite!" Why does he do it? What is he trying to communicate to the world? Is he genuinely enthusiastic about the idea of unity among the workers of the world? Is his enthusiasm so great that he feels an irrepressible impulse to acquaint the public with his ideals? Has he really given more than a moment's thought to how such a unification might occur and what it would mean?

I think it can safely be assumed that the overwhelming majority of shopkeepers never think about the slogans they put in their windows, nor do they use them to express their real opinions. That poster was delivered to our greengrocer from the enterprise headquarters along with the onions and carrots. He put them all into the window simply because it has been done that way for years, because everyone does it, and because that is the way it has to be. If he were to refuse, there could be trouble. He could be reproached for not having the proper decoration in his window; someone might even accuse him of disloyalty. He does it because these things must be done if one is to get along in life. It is one of the thousands of details that guarantee him a relatively tranquil life "in harmony with society," as they say.

Obviously the greengrocer is indifferent to the semantic content of the slogan on exhibit; he does not put the slogan in his window from any personal desire to acquaint the public with the ideal it expresses. This, of course, does not mean that his action has no motive or significance at all, or that the slogan communicates nothing to anyone. The slogan is really a sign, and as such it contains a subliminal but very definite message. Verbally, it might be expressed this way: "I, the greengrocer XY, live here and I know what I must do. I behave in the manner expected of me. I can be depended upon and am beyond reproach. I am obedient and therefore I have the right to be left in peace." This message, of course, has an addressee: it is directed above, to the greengrocer's superior, and at the same time it is a shield that protects the greengrocer from potential informers. The slogan's real meaning, therefore, is rooted firmly in the greengrocer's existence. It reflects his vital interests. But what are those vital interests?

Let us take note: if the greengrocer had been instructed to display the slogan "I am afraid and therefore unquestioningly obedient;' he would not be nearly as indifferent to its semantics, even though the statement would reflect the truth.

hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/the-power-of-the-powerless-vaclav-havel-2011-12-23[/quote]
Love this! I'm torn between sending a link to Vaclav's essay and putting (sex- based pronouns like my oppression ) when next asked.

Wildfart · 20/10/2021 16:01

She actually works for me and inclusivity is an add on to her regular job.

It's interesting isn't it? Add "inclusivity" to a job and all it results in is time wasters pushing the latest witless dogma they've stumbled across.

It's become a joke.

MrsPsmalls · 20/10/2021 16:17

@Wildfart

She actually works for me and inclusivity is an add on to her regular job.

It's interesting isn't it? Add "inclusivity" to a job and all it results in is time wasters pushing the latest witless dogma they've stumbled across.

It's become a joke.

Well it's a tickbox exercise. Every dept has to have one. She volunteered I think because her daughter is gay and she is now our expert!
OP posts:
RedDogsBeg · 20/10/2021 16:24

Be more Esther on GB News -

I have thought about it, I choose to ignore it.

t.co/ToxyO0TVwp

littlbrowndog · 20/10/2021 16:26

Here from sex matters

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/pronouns/

ChateauMargaux · 20/10/2021 16:26

I would avoid the faux engagement in the gender ideology pretending you are protecting those trans people unable to declare their pronouns or pretending that you are have a closet trans identity.

I would be honest and state that women are discriminated against due to their sex and bringing additional attention to this by adding pronouns to emails will increase the incidence of unconscious bias against all women.

By stating pronouns, there is an implication that you subscribe to gender stereotypes inherent in the current narrative around the female gender. You believe that assuming stereotypes on behalf of anyone, whatever their sex, beliefs, presentation or sexual orientation is harmful and that everyone should be accepted on face value as a defacto human capable of equal contribution to society.

To use @OvaHere's wondeful words.. pronoun culture is a tool that reinforces sexism and inequality. I would add, and further oppresses women without liberating those who do not identify with the very gender stereotypes they seek to escape.

In rejecting the stereotypes that proponents of the pronoun culture believe are imposed on them by their sex, they simply succeed in imposing those stereotypes on others, further entrenching a narrative of gender binary rather than dismantling it.

(Though a simple.. no thank you.. might be quicker..)

KittenKong · 20/10/2021 16:36

‘I don’t want to’.

How exactly is you doing this making a blind bit of difference to anyone else?

Someone is after their stonewall points, eh?

LizzieSiddal · 20/10/2021 16:40

I would be honest and state that women are discriminated against due to their sex and bringing additional attention to this by adding pronouns to emails will increase the incidence of unconscious bias against all women.

I too would say this.
It’s all very well just saying “I don’t wish to” but it doesn’t educate anyone re the other side of this. This “inclusivity” person will have been trained by Stonewall they do need to hear how their approach actually does not always make sense for everyone, especially women!

MimiDaisy11 · 20/10/2021 16:44

I find the thought behind this (if there is any thought) so muddled. What trans person outs themself by putting pronouns in their email? Aren’t they going to change how they dress, change their name etc?
If I get an email about someone called Julia or Sarah I’m naturally going to call them ‘she’ in the reply. It’s only attention seekers who are going to get pissy at you calling someone she who is called Sarah who is clearly female.

Mochudubh · 20/10/2021 16:45

I don't think anyone should be made to label themselves.

Tidyspy · 20/10/2021 17:41

The reason I decided not to give reasons or get into a discussion was because I know that the response would be to just disagree with e.g. reservations due to women being discriminated against at work etc and say “this is about being an ally”. No reasons such as any given above would be accepted. If (when) it comes up again and I’m pressed to do it, I will say I prefer not to add such personal info to emails, if I’m asked face to face (by someone inexplicably confused as to how to refer to a woman shaped person with a big standard female name in the 3rd person) of course I’ll answer but I’m not volunteering it to all and sundry.

Tidyspy · 20/10/2021 17:41

*bog standard FFS

EarthSight · 20/10/2021 18:21

An enormous amount of this has to do with relying on women's desire to be accommodating and fit in. They think you will bow to the pressure and other women are sadly quite happy police their sisters into line.

Do not, even if she seems happy, lovely and friendly, start to go into conversation about this with her. If she's really into all this, she won't see it as a respectful debate or conversation, she'll see it as an opportunity to 'educate' you and if you refuse that education, there's a good chance you'll be labelled in an unflattering way which might cause problems down the line.

Make sure you don't fill silences. It all depends on who you're speaking to, but if it's someone to watch out for, the will make sure that anything you do say will be used against you.

'No' is what they need to hear and accept. Not 'No', followed by you falling over yourself to explain. Just 'no' or 'no thank you'.

However, there might be situations where it's really not that simple, and I've private messaged you my own responses to this kind of thing, which I don't want to publish on here.

EarthSight · 20/10/2021 18:22

@Mochudubh

I don't think anyone should be made to label themselves.
@Mochudubh That's a very good response.
LorenzoVonMatterhorn · 20/10/2021 18:32

She said I should as it makes it easier for trans people who want to add theirs.

Tell her she should take hers off as it makes it easier for women who don't want to add theirs.

I like this. But I think id just go to my now favourite phrase, from Sarah Robles, of ‘no thank you.’

mytortoiseisill · 20/10/2021 18:43

"It is not a practice I follow"

is great!

itssarcasmjoan · 20/10/2021 19:01

No is a complete sentence

Itsanewdah · 20/10/2021 19:11

You don’t have to add them of course. However, if you don’t express what your pronouns are, you also can’t complain if somebody uses pronouns you don’t like. So swings and roundabout really, and it’s absolutely your choice, but others around you aren’t mind readers either.

SummerSazz · 20/10/2021 19:14

I'd just reply 'no Thankyou'. In fact I have.

MrsPsmalls · 20/10/2021 19:21

@Itsanewdah

You don’t have to add them of course. However, if you don’t express what your pronouns are, you also can’t complain if somebody uses pronouns you don’t like. So swings and roundabout really, and it’s absolutely your choice, but others around you aren’t mind readers either.
What the hell other pronouns do you imagine people might use?
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frazzledasarock · 20/10/2021 19:23

I didn’t.

I just ignored the email HR sent around.

It amuses me to keep an eye on who puts their pronouns in their emails.

From my observations it’s very few people… women mostly in their twenties and early thirties and the inclusion officer who is also a woman.

Not one single man in the office has seen fit to add their pronouns to their emails.

Itsanewdah · 20/10/2021 19:31

@MrsPsmalls i would avoid pronouns to the best of my abilities if not stated or use they/them if I really have to. Names are a very shaky base for assuming gender, so is appearance - and I’m not comfortable assuming your gender.
For illustration, my (big, multicultural) team at work has a Ryan (she), Michael (she), Danny (she), Sasha (he) and Andrea (he). Most of them i only see online, and gender isn’t immediately obvious for many. So I prefer to stay neutral if i don’t know.
But you obviously don’t have to state your gender. Just makes it easier for others.