Abigail Shrier - Marci Bowers - critical of puberty blockers

[ArabellaScott]

Well, this seems potentially very important.

Marci Bowers, well known surgeon who has treated many 'trans children' is critical of the usage of puberty blockers in this interview with Abigail Shrier. Bowers and a fellow medic call the treatment of 'trans children/young people' reckless and sloppy.

Bowers is slated to lead WPATH as of next year.

bariweiss.substack.com/p/top-trans-doctors-blow-the-whistle

I am fucking raging.

Are MNHQ going to reinstate the women who received strikes and bans for pointing all this out now that the great surgeons themselves, who are still fucking doing the frankensurgeries, have admitted what we were all saying is true?

Jesus Christ on a unicycle. This is the most despicable thing I've seen in a long time. Kudos to Abigail for getting in interviews with the quacks now doing damage limitation, but I am apoplectic with rage at the complicity of others.

Previous threads about Jennings were zapped for focusing on a child, but the whole point was that this was being done to a child. I wonder if the whole circus made it even harder for Jennings to evaluate and potentially reconsider the situation? There's such a possibility of the sunken costs fallacy occurring in the Jennings scenario.

I sincerely hope that the litigious happy Americans will sue their arses to fucking kingdom come.

Scott Newgent (transman) made an interesting point that highlights how difficult it might be to sue some HCPs:

"trans health doesn't really have a justiciable baseline." If a surgeon botches your gall bladder operation, there are criteria by which to judge him or her. Or mastectomies, a relatively simple and straightforward procedure.

But, although increasingly common nowadays, "bottom surgery," still relatively rare compared to most surgeries, is extremely complex and fraught with potential downsides, even those done by competent surgeons. Not all gender dysphoric children go on to bottom surgery as adults, but gender dysphoric adults are the only people who get bottom surgery. The risks associated with these surgeries is something the "affirming" community should be—but are not—communicating to parents of dysphoric children. Instead, parents are led to believe that the lifelong medical interventions they are guiding their children toward…are a benign sidebar to the holy grail of gender transition.

thepostmillennial.com/transman-twitter-banned-for-speaking-against-gender-transition-of-children-fights-back?s=04

Also worth remembering that in some countries (Australia, Canada) parents are having their children removed by the courts for not affirming and one father went to prison for trying to prevent this happening to his child.

Imagine having your kids removed from you cos you don’t want experimental drugs or surgeries performed on them

How the hell did we get to here

@Melroses

With trans health care, there is very little space between those who are providing the treatment and those who are receiving the treatment. There must be an ocean of conflicting interests.

Over three years ago, I was starting to dip my toes into the sex vs gender controversy. I barely knew anything about it and wasn't quite sure where to start. I was searching Google for articles and blogs for information but I wasn't sure what I was meant to be searching for....

And I somehow stumbled across this magnificent piece of insanity -
edinburghath.tumblr.com/post/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto

I read it with growing incredulity and laughed so hard at the obvious batshit craziness of it. Clearly this was a very, very fringe part of the 'trans community' and no one was taking them seriously, right? Right?!

We will change our bodies however we want. We will have universally accessible and freely available hormones & blockers, surgical procedures, and any other relevant treatments and therapies.....
There will be no clinics, and no authorities. We will conduct our own research, and experiment with our own bodies......
We demand hormones & blockers are made available over-the-counter and by free prescription upon request.....
We demand the freedom to alter our bodies without justification. We demand an end to all surgical prerequisites - nobody should have to prove life experience,health or have to be taking hormones in order to exercise bodily autonomy. We demand that these surgeries can be highly customised to meet our individual & unique needs. We demand the right to multiple surgeries, including reversal of previous surgeries if desired, so that we do not have to fear regret.....
We demand medical training to enable us to safely carry out medical procedures & research for each other, for anyone of us who wants to learn....

And yet when you look more closely at the current field of so-called 'trans healthcare', quite a number of the 'experts' and researchers are trans themselves and/or activists. They are all very invested in pushing a certain narrative and in ensuring the end result fits a desired outcome to match with an ideological viewpoint.
Experimenting on each other doesn't seem a farfetched and fringe idea.

Posts on Mumsnet have been deleted in the past for spelling out exactly what these surgeries entail. Someone on this board recently highlighted the work of TT Exulansic on YouTube. TT Exulansic looks at Jazz's story and is excoriating about the adults who have assisted Jazz's transition (including Marci Bowers). I highly recommend checking out those videos.

Marci Bowers can't back away from this now.

I'm glad these people are speaking out, though I'm as angry as everyone else that the potential harms are only now occurring to them. To anyone with a) a functioning brain and b) basic human decency, the harms were obvious all along.

The one thing this whole debate has illustrated is the numbers of people who lack either a) or b) or both.

This article, together with the Cambridge study, which found a high rate of desisting/detransition, and said that the rate of Detransition may be higher than originally thought
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4366035-research-into-detransition-in-rcpsych-journal

Both in the same week

NonnyMouse1337

Action for trans health were also consulted in Maria Millers parliamentary report on trans equality.

She called those who objected, 'women purporting to be feminists.'

Another person who was consulted is Jane Faye. Who has been advocating for decades to legalise extreme porn, of the sort enjoyed by Wayne Couzens, worse actually, and to lower the legal age of the participants.

@littlbrowndog

Imagine having your kids removed from you cos you don’t want experimental drugs or surgeries performed on them

How the hell did we get to here

It's so sick.

Are MNHQ going to reinstate the women who received strikes and bans for pointing all this out now that the great surgeons themselves…have admitted what we were all saying is true?

No. And there's an interesting general history behind this aside from the obvious point that nobody wants to be reminded of a time when they were on the wrong side of history.

There's a phenomenon known as 'premature anti-[X]' and two of the best known instances are to have been a premature anti-fascist or a premature anti-Nazi.

‘Premature anti-fascist’ was the name by which the Lincoln Brigade veterans of the Spanish Civil War were known by the US Army in World War Two. This service and knowledge didn't distinguish them for a leadership position, it was counted as demerit on their record.

In John Platts-Mills' autobiography (barrister and post-war Labour MP), he recalls being ‘excluded from any form of normal war service by the stupidities of Bevin’. He noted: ‘An anti-Nazi history, was of no help and to have been prematurely anti-Nazi was a positive hindrance … we were condemned throughout most of the 1930s on the grounds that only Communists were against the Nazis and this hostility carried over into the war years.’

Commenting on (British?) veterans of the Spanish Civil War, Platts-Mills wrote that ‘many lefties who had served in Spain were called up or were accepted when they volunteered. Several more got in only after a tussle with the authorities.’

I wonder if some of the women deplatformed from various social media will find themselves labelled 'premature anti-authoritarians' or some other 'premature anti-[X]'.

@littlbrowndog

Imagine having your kids removed from you cos you don’t want experimental drugs or surgeries performed on them

How the hell did we get to here

Yes, this is the question that we have to keep asking.

to have been prematurely anti-Nazi was a positive hindrance

Wow. Whistleblowers don't ever get a break. Hated and blamed forever.

@Datun

NonnyMouse1337

Action for trans health were also consulted in Maria Millers parliamentary report on trans equality.

She called those who objected, 'women purporting to be feminists.'

Another person who was consulted is Jane Faye. Who has been advocating for decades to legalise extreme porn, of the sort enjoyed by Wayne Couzens, worse actually, and to lower the legal age of the participants.

People, usually males, pushing insane ideas as 'human rights'. ✔️ Women deeply concerned by these insane ideas, especially the effects on children. ❎

@NotBadConsidering

Marci Bowers is one of Jazz’s surgeons, seen here arguing with another surgeon about what’s normal and what’s not while operating on Jazz:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=-bCVA9q3RBc

I haven’t read the link in the OP yet, but at any stage Dr Bowers could have refused to proceed with any surgery for Jazz, foreseeing the problems everyone else did, but Dr Bowers didn’t.

Just watched that video and can't help wondering whether Bowers is anticipating facing a very public legal confrontation from the Jennings family — and all the evidence is there on video. Even during the surgery the other surgeon questions Bowers's decisions as they operate. It strikes me that the statements made to Shrier are intended to be arse-covering and throwing responsibility back on the families who insisted that surgery was required.

'I think there was naivete on the part of pediatric endocrinologists who were proponents of early [puberty] blockage thinking that just this magic can happen, that surgeons can do anything.'

NHS England have just opened a gender clinic in the UK that is actually called 'CMAGIC'. Here's the logo.

@IvyTwines2

'I think there was naivete on the part of pediatric endocrinologists who were proponents of early [puberty] blockage thinking that just this magic can happen, that surgeons can do anything.'

NHS England have just opened a gender clinic in the UK that is actually called 'CMAGIC'. Here's the logo.

OMG!!

JFC

@ArabellaScott

to have been prematurely anti-Nazi was a positive hindrance

Wow. Whistleblowers don't ever get a break. Hated and blamed forever.

This resonates. My partner and I started raising the alarm about this issue at least a decade ago — tentatively to start with but with increasing boldness. We've lost a great many contacts and have dropped contact with a couple of family members as a result. Only last week one of our close, wavering friends came down on the dark side and denounced us as vile and full of hate. But word is spreading, women are getting angry and every week it feels as if one more person we know starts to get it. But we know that we are tarnished: we know that spotting things and speaking out early has led us as being perceived as unpopular and 'political' and 'difficult' in many quarters and we know it will follow us for the rest of our lives.

@IvyTwines2

'I think there was naivete on the part of pediatric endocrinologists who were proponents of early [puberty] blockage thinking that just this magic can happen, that surgeons can do anything.'

NHS England have just opened a gender clinic in the UK that is actually called 'CMAGIC'. Here's the logo.

Yes there's one in London too. It appears to be a series of clinics based very much on the American 'informed consent' model.

@timeisnotaline

Why do people think they spoke to Shrier? I suppose I feel the natural approach would be to find someone who has been historically friendlier, more of an ally.

I don't know why to Shrier but Anderson has previously voiced concerns about some children. This was an episode of the Blocked & Reported podcast in March this year barpodcast.fireside.fm/bonus8

Excellent if this gets picked up by the mainstream media.

I'm so sorry, Shedbuilder. It's appalling, and I don't really know where to even start with those who have lost jobs, friends, family and reputation just because they've been trying to ask questions, sound alarms, consider the subject from a different angle. I'm afraid it's left me with a much darker view of human nature, overall. Cowardice, quietism and opportunism seem so prevalent that they're pretty much the norm.

@IvyTwines2

'I think there was naivete on the part of pediatric endocrinologists who were proponents of early [puberty] blockage thinking that just this magic can happen, that surgeons can do anything.'

NHS England have just opened a gender clinic in the UK that is actually called 'CMAGIC'. Here's the logo.

well, that makes me feel a bit queasy.

It is magical thinking, and built on such nebulous, uncertain grounds. This 'affirmative' pathway should have no place in evidence-based medecine and absolutely no place in publically funded healthcare and ABSOLUTELY no place in pediatric treatment.