Abigail Shrier - Marci Bowers - critical of puberty blockers

[ArabellaScott]

Well, this seems potentially very important.

Marci Bowers, well known surgeon who has treated many 'trans children' is critical of the usage of puberty blockers in this interview with Abigail Shrier. Bowers and a fellow medic call the treatment of 'trans children/young people' reckless and sloppy.

Bowers is slated to lead WPATH as of next year.

bariweiss.substack.com/p/top-trans-doctors-blow-the-whistle

Neither of these supposed experts seemed to know what they were doing.

I gather they were experts at adult male penile inversion, but had never done it on a prepubertal boy before...

Agree edge.

I think detransitioners on twitter are getting their messages across, joining forces, speaking out. Gaining confidence to query the medical ethics.

I also suspect surgery is becoming so common that there are many truly awful mistakes being made and these "trail blazers" want to distance themselves

I also suspect surgery is becoming so common that there are many truly awful mistakes being made and these "trail blazers" want to distance themselves

I imagine they end up clearing up the mess, as experts?

Maybe their caseload is increasingly dominated with "repairs"?

Anyone going for transition surgery has to sign an agreement. However, these agreements would never stand up in court and not against a class action. I wonder how many have already settled out of court? A good lawyer would get a settlement regardless of a signature.

Unfortunately, these threads always make me feel a bit queasy

“If you’ve never had an orgasm pre-surgery, and then your puberty's blocked, it's very difficult to achieve that afterwards,” Bowers said. “I consider that a big problem, actually. It's kind of an overlooked problem that in our ‘informed consent’ of children undergoing puberty blockers, we’ve in some respects overlooked that a little bit.”

Overlooked by trans rights activism and “transgender healthcare” advocates, perhaps, but gender critical voices have been raising this concern for years and been widely dismissed as “transphobic”, “perverts”, “obsessed with” children’s genitals/sex lives. FFS. If lay (non-medically trained) feminists could see this was a glaringly obvious issue, there is zero excuse for HCPs administering these treatments “overlooking” it.

This is transparent arse covering. But, these are the people who need to be on board in order for children to stop being harmed. So, good that they are finally waking up to the reality of what they have been doing.

Green's tweet from the 2018 WPATH conference

Bowers has a nerve. I've seen clips from I am Jazz where Bowers argues with another surgeon mid-procedure. Neither of these supposed experts seemed to know what they were doing.

That’s the video I linked above in the thread. Two surgeons who can’t decide if what they’re looking at is a scar or a normal sulcus (normal groove).

Anyone and everyone knew what the problems would be operating on pre-pubertal tissue like this, it’s been discussed here and I’ve had a strike for discussing it. Bowers could have refused at any time but didn’t. And now Bowers has the audacity to claim a position of moral high ground about how devastating puberty blockers are?

I cannot get over altering children's sexual organs before they ever get the chance to experience them.

That's a fantastic article. Like PPs it's beyond frustrating to see Bowers wash their hands of responsibility but I also think Shrier is thinking of the bigger picture. Getting Bowers in addition to Anderson to talk about the many downsides is more important right now to halting the affirmation only narrative than holding them personally accountable.

@Melroses

Green's tweet from the 2018 WPATH conference

She's paraphrasing Bowers there?

Quite a reverse ferret.

People like Bowers are never going to admit that they have ever done anything specifically wrong, are they, it’s always going to be someone else’s fault, blame the guidelines, unintended/unforeseen consequences etc. Honestly I think people like this don’t have the capacity for critical self-reflection and humility. If they do ever admit errors, they need to be seen as a brilliant saviour for doing so. Anger at the nerve and hypocrisy is fair enough, but, this is still a positive development for the future wellbeing of gender questioning and nonconforming children.

Note that at least Bowers' speciality is male genital reconstruction. Both the entire field being discredited due to female ROGD+detransition, and young males getting puberty blocked, potentially interfere with that work...

I wonder if Bowers does phalloplasty at all? I suppose if Bowers’ cases have for the most part been fully consenting adult males and Bowers presumably isn’t responsible for blocking the puberty of 11 year olds so can’t be sued for that. If the Bulk of Bowers’ cases are adult males they can afford to be critical of the rest of it. Putting as much distance between Bowers and the children as possible.

That’s a good article. Shrier is a very clear writer. It’s hard to argue with her points. I think these surgeons have seen the way the wind will be blowing with hundreds of de transitioners coming down the track and they are trying to position themselves on the right side of history ( ironically)

@Melroses

Green's tweet from the 2018 WPATH conference

The emperor of all reverse ferrets.

The other story here is that this v significant surgeon, who operated on jazz and will lead wpath, has said all of this, but it's published on someone's substack. I know Weiss and shrier are both professional journalists, but it should be an interview in a main newspaper or the equivalent of Newsnight. It's so damning of American journalism and news media. I know there's no real equivalent of newsnight and that's part of the problem, but didn't 60 minutes do something on medical transition and detransition but still stuck to the approved narrative? But the newspapers used to be thorough and detailed (I found them a bit boring tbh 10 yrs ago when I was there). They should be investigating, or at least publishing shrier's interview. Such cowards.

@NotBadConsidering

Marci Bowers is one of Jazz’s surgeons, seen here arguing with another surgeon about what’s normal and what’s not while operating on Jazz:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=-bCVA9q3RBc

I haven’t read the link in the OP yet, but at any stage Dr Bowers could have refused to proceed with any surgery for Jazz, foreseeing the problems everyone else did, but Dr Bowers didn’t.

This clip is stomach-turning.

What are they doing? They don't know what they're doing!

Why would you cut a young person's genitals when you have no clear reason for doing so, no methodology, not even consensus between the two doctors working on Jazz on what they should be doing. And these are supposedly the 'best' surgeons at this surgery - what on earth fuck are the bad ones like?

I am so angry on behalf of Jazz, and all those who've been effectively experimented on by Bowers and medics like Bowers.

Glad this is in the Mail. I hope it blows the whole cruel, absurd farce out of the water.

"Many American gender surgeons augment the tissue for constructing neovaginas with borrowed stomach lining and even a swatch of bowel. Bowers draws the line at the colon. “I never use the colon,” she said. “It’s the last resort. You can get colon cancer. If it’s used sexually, you can get this chronic colitis that has to be treated over time. And it’s just in the discharge and the nasty appearance and it doesn’t smell like vagina.” "

This paragraph really stood out for me. I remember the YouTube clip where Suzie Green laughs when she hears that her 16 year old child will have to have a neovagina made from a length of colon.

The surgeon explains to her that puberty blockers meant that they had 'very little to work with'.

Suzie frequently shares quite sexualised images of Jackie - in low cut tops - to suggest that the surgery has been a success.

The tragic reality is that Jackie has never had an orgasm and will never enjoy sexual intimacy. However Jackie will have to endure a lifetime of complications from the 7-hour surgery that took place on the day of their 16th birthday.

However Jackie will have to endure a lifetime of complications from the 7-hour surgery that took place on the day of their 16th birthday.

Because Jackie wanted to play with dolls when Jackie was small and Jackie's dad didn't like it.

It's all there in Susie Green's TED talk.

[quote WarriorN]Linking this thread here. I've not been able to bring myself to watch it

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4364606-The-Phalloplasty-Philes-You-tuber-documents-trans-surgery-realities[/quote]
They are good to watch. Well good is wrong word. Informative

The lady that does them had gender dysphasia for many years

It’s good to see what she says when she is asked a question about her dsyphoria

So instead of operating on children and giving them untested drugs.

Helping them with talking therapy

I don't see how its possible for anyone with a medical degree to not be aware that the end result of puberty blockers & cross sex hormones will include loss of fertility and adult sexual function. They knew. They just thought the aesthetics were more important.

What the fuck kind of doctor refers to a patient as "like a porn star" for having their mutilated genitals photographed so many times?

I've had a vaginal repair done and each time it was examined I felt more embarrassed. Jazz is lying there as they discuss how crooked the "vagina" is and how to fix it. Then it looks like the doc gets out their personal phone to take pics? And then refers to Jazz being like a porn star?

Actually cannot believe what I am watching. And this is ON TV. The doc knows it's being recorded and put to air.

Sorry that was in relation to the youtube linked abode re Jazz's consultation with Bowers

m.youtube.com/watch?v=-bCVA9q3RBc

I find Bowers manner v disturbing. Who kisses their teen patients?

Does anyone know the outcome of this surgery?

Does anyone know the outcome of this surgery?

There's stuff on it in Shrier's article:

At first, Jazz’s surgery seemed to have gone fine, but soon after she said experienced “crazy pain.” She was rushed back to the hospital, where Dr. Jess Ting was waiting. “As I was getting her on the bed, I heard something go pop,” Ting said in an episode of “I Am Jazz.” Jazz’s new vagina — or neovagina, as surgeons say — had split apart. [...]

In the year after her operation, Jazz would require three more surgeries, and then defer Harvard College for a year to deal with her depression. In 2021, she opened up about a binge-eating disorder that caused her to gain nearly 100 pounds in under two years.

Jazz has insisted she has “no regrets” about her transition. (I reached out to Jazz for an interview and never heard back).

Is there any concept of medical ethics and best clinical practice in this field?

It must be terrifying to be young gay teens who dare to like the "wrong" gendered stuff these days. How strong they have to be to maintain that they're not trans, and that it is in fact perfectly fine to be an effeminate gay lad or a butch lesbian girl.