Abigail Shrier - Marci Bowers - critical of puberty blockers

[ArabellaScott]

Well, this seems potentially very important.

Marci Bowers, well known surgeon who has treated many 'trans children' is critical of the usage of puberty blockers in this interview with Abigail Shrier. Bowers and a fellow medic call the treatment of 'trans children/young people' reckless and sloppy.

Bowers is slated to lead WPATH as of next year.

bariweiss.substack.com/p/top-trans-doctors-blow-the-whistle

I started a thread about the new WPATH guidelines here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4367712-New-WPATH-Guidelines-SOC8?msgid=111400437

How are people responding on Twitter?

Marci Bowers seems to be rolling back on some of the things said.

twitter.com/4th_WaveNow/status/1445556425833340930?t=D5pK762S9ytHkr3B97LU4Q&s=19

Isn't WPATH a lobbying group? Everything about it makes it sound as though it's a team of global medical experts coming together.

"orgasmic naivete". Dear god. I used to be surprised watching American movies by the scenes where teenagers ask adults to buy beer for them. No alcohol till 21? And the fuss when a character in a comic book or TV show (for adults) smokes a cigarette. In that respect, they seemed so much more aware of safeguarding than we did. But now? Yeah, let children 'decide' to a loss of sexual function in every aspect for the rest of their life.

I think that WPATH has been made out to have medical expertise in the past when I think they may have had some medical staff but it was well and truly run by people who are heavily personally invested in pushing the best guidelines that suited their own purpose or how they wanted it to be for themselves.

WPATH has been made out to have medical expertise in the past when I think they may have had some medical staff but it was well and truly run by people who are heavily personally invested

Are you suggesting that this is more a lobbying organisation than a professional association with a focus on making evidence-based guidelines? This is one of the reasons that we need full descriptions of authors and their conflicts of interest and expertise.

@Helleofabore

I think that WPATH has been made out to have medical expertise in the past when I think they may have had some medical staff but it was well and truly run by people who are heavily personally invested in pushing the best guidelines that suited their own purpose or how they wanted it to be for themselves.

Which makes it interesting if they are reversed ferreting about any of it.

It has to be lawsuits.

@TimeToDateAgain

WPATH has been made out to have medical expertise in the past when I think they may have had some medical staff but it was well and truly run by people who are heavily personally invested

Are you suggesting that this is more a lobbying organisation than a professional association with a focus on making evidence-based guidelines? This is one of the reasons that we need full descriptions of authors and their conflicts of interest and expertise.

I think we've known this for some time. Medical professionals are involved but medical standards and ethics are not the focus.

Susie Green of Mermaids I believe is a member and her professional background is in IT until she became involved in professional lobbying.

The recent backpedaling suggests there will be major changes in Standards of Care 8 which I read is due to be released on 31st Dec.

The new WPATH site has a handy little pdf of all those involved in the update and I expect lots will change their position in the next few weeks.

www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/SOC%20v8/SOC8%20Full%20Contributor%20List%20-%20FINAL%20UPDATED%2009232021.pdf

Interesting twitter thread from Exulansic of the Phalloplasty Philes.

I think likely legal action is her conclusion regarding the reverse ferret.

twitter.com/exulansic/status/1445626192967520264?s=21

I think we've known this for some time. Medical professionals are involved but medical standards and ethics are not the focus.

Originally it was the "Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association".

They rebranded it as the "World Professional Association for Transgender Health" to make it sound more authoritative.

It still is, primarily, a professional association. It doesn't seem to be a proper clinical/medical body.

(Note that the founder Harry Benjamin named it after himself. This wasn't like a commemorative honour or something. A cynic might wonder if this reflects on its initial credibility.)

That is a series of podcasts Time, the second one is available today podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/we-feel-like-were-in-the-wild-west-parents-of/id1524832743?i=1000537699201

Its a fascinating listen, it has the same doctor as the previous podcast talking to some mothers of boys who they believe had ROGD. They were an an earlier episode. I think the most eyeopening part is how unregulated and experimental a lot of this treatment is. You can hear the disbelief in the parents voice, and I did like that when Dr Edwards-Leaper mentions suicide the host doesn't let it go, she does quetion it quite robustly which is refreshing.

Latest from Abigail

abigailshrier.substack.com/p/why-marci-matters

Excellent follow up piece.

So the key person chopping breasts off acknowledges it's a peer social media (YouTube) influenced phenomenon.

For. Fucks. Sake.

@WarriorN

Excellent follow up piece.

So the key person chopping breasts off acknowledges it's a peer social media (YouTube) influenced phenomenon.

For. Fucks. Sake.

I think Bowers only does male surgery - could be wrong on that but they all seem to have specialisms. Dr Crane specialises in Phalloplasty and that female surgeon who advertises on Tik Tok is the well known 'top surgery' specialist.

If that is the case then we need to bear in mind that pointing out the problem with teen girls does not affect their own line of business.

This is what I don't get right. Its obvious to anyone whos been through puberty that it is a stage of huge psycho-social and sexual development. So why does it come to such a huge shock to these qualified, experienced and learned medical professionals that stoping that process stunts development?

These people are incompetent or liars, which is it?

I feel sorry for the kids and I feel sorry for the parents who went against their better judgement because they were sold the suicide lie (which doctors now admit there is no proof) to support their kids. They have been hugely let down, lied to and manipulated for money.

Bowers does vaginoplasty. The operation becomes a lot harder - with worse outcomes - when performed on child genitalia. Therefore Bowers, who wants an easy life, is saying that her adult patients really ought to have adult genitalia.

It's huge for such a senior figure to question the trans orthodoxy but let's not pretend it's anything other than blind self-interest at play here.

And you raise an interesting question: Is there something going on with our teenage girls? And the answer I would give is yes. Do we know what it is precisely? No.

Do they care?.......

I agree with you Hoping it feels like the house of cards is going to fall soon and people are trying to distance themselves as far as possible from the fallout

And you raise an interesting question: Is there something going on with our teenage girls? And the answer I would give is yes. Do we know what it is precisely? No.

Try asking the biggest gathering of the mothers of teens in history then. Because we all know it.

@Datun

And you raise an interesting question: Is there something going on with our teenage girls? And the answer I would give is yes. Do we know what it is precisely? No.

Try asking the biggest gathering of the mothers of teens in history then. Because we all know it.

Its almost as if social contagion amongst teenage girls is a new unstudied phenomena.

These doctors don't think teenage girls are capable of encouraging each other to have life changing surgeries? They think teenage girls don't teach eachother the right words to say in a therapy session to get hormones? I knew teenage girls who encouraged each other to starve themselves to the point of emaciation. I knew teenage girls who taught each other to take speed and laxatives to starve themselves. I knew teenage girls who would cut and burn themselves? would teach each other the best places and best ways to do it to hide it from their parents.

None of this is new.

These children need support and guidance to help them with their confusion, instead the adults are expecting the kids to have the answers, and the parents who want to guide their children are told they're causing more harm.

I think it makes me so angry because we know what is motivating this and it isn't the child's welfare, whatever these people say, it just isn't

That is a series of podcasts Time, the second one is available today

Thank you. That is a good follow-up. I'm still finding it hard to accept all of this has been happening in full public view with such little scrutiny.

None of this is new.

Exactly. What happens when professionals discuss this? Is there no perspective from social history involved?

Thanks for the link to the follow up article littlebrowndog, it’s excellent.

AS is right, it was courageous of both Drs to talk with her on the issues. It gets pretty tribal too much of the time.

Ova, I know Bowers only does phalloplasty; I suppose my comment alludes to a lack of critical thinking around how children end up being referred and "diagnosed" as trans.

The child I taught who queried gender was told that he was trans by older siblings who had watched "documentaries." Prior to that he just liked everything princess Disney and Hannah Montana. But was understandably unhappy that it wasn't socially acceptable for him to wear a dress. (Later dx autistic) after being informed he could have an operation as he had a woman trapped in his head, he was both delighted that the problem lay with him, could be fixed and became more angry and insistent.

Helen Joyce is right in that this is an illness that's been invented by the medical "profession," although the early beginning were by led mostly by quacks.