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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Abigail Shrier - Marci Bowers - critical of puberty blockers

250 replies

ArabellaScott · 04/10/2021 22:32

Well, this seems potentially very important.

Marci Bowers, well known surgeon who has treated many 'trans children' is critical of the usage of puberty blockers in this interview with Abigail Shrier. Bowers and a fellow medic call the treatment of 'trans children/young people' reckless and sloppy.

Bowers is slated to lead WPATH as of next year.

bariweiss.substack.com/p/top-trans-doctors-blow-the-whistle

OP posts:
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3timeslucky · 05/10/2021 12:10

The use of the term "magic" is disgusting. You'd think they were taking kids to fucking Disneyland.

334bu · 05/10/2021 12:11

Why did they ever think that stunting children's natural growth could be anything other than a disaster.?

Datun · 05/10/2021 12:13

I haven't read Shrier's book, but I'm not sure why she seems to make such a distinction between girls and boys transitioning. Boys have gender dysphoria, but girls have ROGD? Does she talk about homophobia as a motivator in her book?

I'm very glad she has lifted the lid off this, and I also think there was a strategy here. But there was an inconsistency that I hadn't expected.

BigGreen · 05/10/2021 12:13

Those videos from 'I am Jazz' are appalling. There seems no realisation from the parents' side that this is highly experimental surgery, nor any attempt from the Drs to quantify the risk e.g. saying 'it's always a possibility...' vs clearly stating this is an experimental protocol that has rarely been attempted in this manner - surely meaning that there can be no real assurances given about what is likely to happen?

How can people disagree with evidence based medicine for kids? This is all so disturbing.

EdgeOfACoin · 05/10/2021 12:15

"CMAGIC"? This is just continuing to infantilise and rainbow wash the whole sordid process.

It's all rainbows and sparkles, magic and mermaids, while they set these children on the path to puberty blockers, surgery, phalloplasties made from arm tissue and neovaginas made from colons.

I cannot believe our politicians are just blithely going along with it all.

Lovelyricepudding · 05/10/2021 12:15

@EdgeOfACoin

Posts on Mumsnet have been deleted in the past for spelling out exactly what these surgeries entail. Someone on this board recently highlighted the work of TT Exulansic on YouTube. TT Exulansic looks at Jazz's story and is excoriating about the adults who have assisted Jazz's transition (including Marci Bowers). I highly recommend checking out those videos.

Marci Bowers can't back away from this now.

I agree with the sentiment, but we need people like March Bowers to be able to back away. We need them to have a route by which they can change their minds. We need those embedded in trans belief to be able to step out and speak up.
OvaHere · 05/10/2021 12:19

@3timeslucky

The use of the term "magic" is disgusting. You'd think they were taking kids to fucking Disneyland.
I think these clinics are for adults ( referrals are 17 + and possibly they don't treat until over 18) children still have to go through paediatric gender clinics.

It's not a whole lot better but for the sake of accuracy they aren't aimed at children even if there is a debate to be had about exactly how 'adult' 18 year olds are.

Probably should be noted that it was the Tories who promised and commissioned this spate of 'Gender Incongruence Clinics' to treat under informed consent not just people who identify as transgender but also non binary identities or any other identity that might fall under 'gender'.

More info here as to the purpose.

www.merseycare.nhs.uk/our-services/liverpool/sexual-health/cmagic-cheshire-and-merseyside-adult-gender-identity-collaborative/cmagic-referrals

Shedbuilder · 05/10/2021 12:20

No, thank you, Arabella, for giving me a peg on which to hang (and make sense) of what's been happening to us. Most of us just to live in ignorance of the unpleasant things going on in the world, so those of us who've been banging on and making people listen to things they'd rather not know about are the ones who end up scapegoated. I know this is what has happened in my circle.

I have GC friends who are rational and so have to be GC but resent me introducing this whole subject in their lives. I've had people saying things along the lines of 'I curse the day you sent me that article and my world changed.' I get it. In their shoes I might feel the same way.

How awful to have risked your life fighting fascism in Spain, then recognising what's happening in Nazi Germany and being discriminated against for seeing what you see.

Beowulfa · 05/10/2021 12:21

I hadn't heard of Jazz Jennings before this thread. Surely this has to be a "when Ginger dies in Black Beauty" moment for the Be Kind brigade?

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 05/10/2021 12:26

@EdgeOfACoin

"CMAGIC"? This is just continuing to infantilise and rainbow wash the whole sordid process.

It's all rainbows and sparkles, magic and mermaids, while they set these children on the path to puberty blockers, surgery, phalloplasties made from arm tissue and neovaginas made from colons.

I cannot believe our politicians are just blithely going along with it all.

Despite the styling (and I agree with you about that), it's a collaborative for adults: Cheshire and Merseyside Adult Gender Identity Collaborative

At some point it seems like they were considering calling it "Gender Incongruence" but as that is rapidly going to run into an ideological conflict of trans v non-binary it feels like future-proofing to switch to "Gender Identity" as they have.

At first glance, this is a good framework and has excellent service user input (like a number of the major HIV centres). I wish I could see this sort of set-up for common conditions - imagine if they'd been this excited about setting up a GI clinic for which the GI were 'gastro-intestinal' and had lots of user input and appropriate support services.

ComprehensiveTea · 05/10/2021 12:27

@teawamutu

Brava Abigail Shrier.

And it'll be interesting to see how Mermaids, Stonewall etc respond. The usual 'right wing religious transphobia' schtick isn't going to work when it's actual trans practitioners speaking up.

Their response will either be "TRAITORS!!!!!!!" or "we have been pointing out the dangers of blockers for ages and we are finally being listened to" or "... (total lack of acknowledgement this is happening)". Actually, I think the 3rd response is the most likely.
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 05/10/2021 12:31

OvaHere was faster than I was - apologies for needless duplication.

we need people like March Bowers to be able to back away. We need them to have a route by which they can change their minds. We need those embedded in trans belief to be able to step out and speak up

It's golden bridge (Tsun Szu) time. Like it or not, people like Bowers are the 'coolers' in this arena and they are the ones who will convince those with embedded beliefs, not those who are outside the belief community.

A different take on why people need golden bridges from an anti-vaxxer perspective and using what is known about perpetrating cons/fraud:

Goffman observed that all “marks” eventually come to understand that they have been defrauded. But strangely, they almost never complain or report the crime to the authorities. Why? Because, Goffman argues, admitting that you have been conned is so deeply shameful that “marks” experience it as a kind of social death – the painful end of one of the many social roles we all play.

Within those groups, we can pinpoint influential members who may be turning their backs on Covid denialism, and encourage them in their journey. We can message them offering support, particularly if our reference groups overlap – whether that means sharing the same home town, or practising the same faith. The more shared social space, the better. We might offer to back them up if they get trolled for expressing misgivings about Covid denialism. Or we could let them know that we would admire them for telling the truth.

Those people may not have a television audience of millions, but they nonetheless have the potential to act as “coolers” for those in their reference groups – both online and off. The higher their status within the groups, the more influence they will have in reconciling their fellow travellers to the reality of the pandemic, perhaps enabling them to rejoin society, or at least preventing them from endangering the rest of us.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/09/convince-anti-vaxxers

MattDillonsEyebrows · 05/10/2021 12:37

Reading about Jazz having the penis of an 11 year old at the age of 17 makes me so sad.
Maybe I worked with sex offenders for too long but ever since I heard about puberty blockers being used for teenagers , I have always thought 'what sort of person would like to see a vulnerable 18 year old with the body of someone much younger....'

It really is scary thinking about it. I feel so sorry for Jazz, she's just a product of her parents fantasies.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 05/10/2021 12:41

It really is scary thinking about it. I feel so sorry for Jazz, she's just a product of her parents fantasies.

How long will it take until the parents and HCPs who collaborated with them attract the condemnation now given to Harlow, Spock, Skinner?

www.popsci.com/1950s-experiments-attachment-unethical/

gailforce1 · 05/10/2021 12:41

This is being reported in the Daily Mail on line on their US page. If someone could share that would be great. TIA

Datun · 05/10/2021 12:41

Although the clinics are for adults or late teens, by the time they get there, they have been immersed in the teaching of this ideology in school, amplified by YouTube influencers.

They've been taught by our educational system that there is such a thing as a gender identity. And despite no-one being able to describe it, they begin to feel like they must have one. Or maybe because no one can describe it. And the only criteria they can use is stereotypes.

It's all rainbows and sparkles, magic and mermaids, while they set these children on the path to puberty blockers, surgery, phalloplasties made from arm tissue and neovaginas made from colons.

They don't just show up out of nowhere. They have been immersed in it for years.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 05/10/2021 12:42

@gailforce1

This is being reported in the Daily Mail on line on their US page. If someone could share that would be great. TIA
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10058951/Leading-transgender-medics-warn-children-given-gender-reassignment-surgery.html
ANewCreation · 05/10/2021 12:46

When I asked Bowers if she still thought puberty blockers were a good idea, from a surgical perspective, she said: “This is typical of medicine. We zig and then we zag, and I think maybe we zigged a little too far to the left in some cases.” She added “I think there was naivete on the part of pediatric endocrinologists who were proponents of early [puberty] blockade thinking that just this magic can happen, that surgeons can do anything.”

This seems to be the same sidestep dance/siloed thinking that the Tavistock are engaged in.

Psychiatrists have completed the exact same medical degree as surgeons and physicians in the UK and have to spend the early part of their career working as junior doctors doing medical and surgical jobs before specialising in mental health medicine.

In the Tavistock's case the initial assessing clinicians are, almost without exception, not medical doctors (psychiatrists) but rather psychologists (academic doctors) so they are not allowed to prescribe medication.

Their training does not require them to understand how the human body works as a whole organism, they haven't assisted in surgery, done attachments in paediatrics/obs and gyne/urology, aren't aware of the side effects/interactions of medication etc.

They therefore have to pass the prescription buck to the (medical doctor) endocrinologists, who naturally assume that a) a full capacity assessment has been done and b) the medical evidence for prescribing blockers/X sex hormones as the gold standard treatment for gender dysphoria is incontrovertible. Because, presumably, suicide.

Endocrinologists will have all been through a psychiatry rotation at medical school but their sole focus would be on what is possible to do with hormones, they respond to what other medics are asking for - so the idea that they were the proponents driving early puberty blockade is nonsense.

Now here is a surgeon - the god complex stereotype of surgeons is not without foundation - who has benefited from late transition personally but early transition financially - blaming others for this scandal... well, I can't say what I would like to without getting a strike and I get it, golden bridge and all that... And I like the way that Abigail Shrier let them speak - so last word to Marci.

Bowers draws the line at the colon. “I never use the colon,” she said. “It’s the last resort. You can get colon cancer. If it’s used sexually, you can get this chronic colitis that has to be treated over time. And it’s just in the discharge and the nasty appearance and it doesn’t smell like vagina.”

Nope. Not creepy at all.

IvyTwines2 · 05/10/2021 12:47

"I think these clinics are for adults ( referrals are 17 + and possibly they don't treat until over 18) children still have to go through paediatric gender clinics."

CMagic is for 17-plus, so teenagers, school-age children. Teenagers who are looking at the adult world, the trusted, beloved NHS, and see them promoting the idea that you step through their doors and they can perform magic on you.

BatmansBat · 05/10/2021 12:48

@Datun

Abigail Shrier notes the huge increase in girls who wants to transition compared to boys. She states that adolescent girls are harder hit by the negative effects of social media than boys. Her book focuses on the girls and she has interviewed a huge number of parents of girls.

I think boys were beyond the scope of her book. They may also be impacted but she wrote the book due to coming across so many parents of girls who wanted to talk about this and then noticing the trends in transitioning where the number of girls saw a massive escalation.

Datun · 05/10/2021 12:50

[quote EmbarrassingAdmissions]OvaHere was faster than I was - apologies for needless duplication.

we need people like March Bowers to be able to back away. We need them to have a route by which they can change their minds. We need those embedded in trans belief to be able to step out and speak up

It's golden bridge (Tsun Szu) time. Like it or not, people like Bowers are the 'coolers' in this arena and they are the ones who will convince those with embedded beliefs, not those who are outside the belief community.

A different take on why people need golden bridges from an anti-vaxxer perspective and using what is known about perpetrating cons/fraud:

Goffman observed that all “marks” eventually come to understand that they have been defrauded. But strangely, they almost never complain or report the crime to the authorities. Why? Because, Goffman argues, admitting that you have been conned is so deeply shameful that “marks” experience it as a kind of social death – the painful end of one of the many social roles we all play.

Within those groups, we can pinpoint influential members who may be turning their backs on Covid denialism, and encourage them in their journey. We can message them offering support, particularly if our reference groups overlap – whether that means sharing the same home town, or practising the same faith. The more shared social space, the better. We might offer to back them up if they get trolled for expressing misgivings about Covid denialism. Or we could let them know that we would admire them for telling the truth.

Those people may not have a television audience of millions, but they nonetheless have the potential to act as “coolers” for those in their reference groups – both online and off. The higher their status within the groups, the more influence they will have in reconciling their fellow travellers to the reality of the pandemic, perhaps enabling them to rejoin society, or at least preventing them from endangering the rest of us.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/09/convince-anti-vaxxers[/quote]
That's very interesting. And I can see that totally playing out in real life. In fact I know someone who was conned, and doesn't want anyone to know about it.

Unfortunately, though, what's going to happen when TRA's fly off the handle and vociferously condemn this latest recantation?

Datun · 05/10/2021 12:51

[quote BatmansBat]@Datun

Abigail Shrier notes the huge increase in girls who wants to transition compared to boys. She states that adolescent girls are harder hit by the negative effects of social media than boys. Her book focuses on the girls and she has interviewed a huge number of parents of girls.

I think boys were beyond the scope of her book. They may also be impacted but she wrote the book due to coming across so many parents of girls who wanted to talk about this and then noticing the trends in transitioning where the number of girls saw a massive escalation.[/quote]
Thank you for that clarity. I feel bad asking people to explain since I haven't read it!

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 05/10/2021 12:53

This feels like the day for identifying phenomena. This sounds like Balint's "Collusion of anonymity".

The collusion of anonymity is a term coined by Michael Balint (1964)1 that refers to a situation in which several doctors are involved in the treatment of a patient, but no one takes full responsibility.

www.asociatiabalint.ro/english_reports/THE%20COLLUSION%20OF%20ANONYMITY.pdf

MDTs are supposed to resolve this but it's not my impression that some facilities have an authentic MDT with adequate and appropriate leadership.

OvaHere · 05/10/2021 12:55

@IvyTwines2

"I think these clinics are for adults ( referrals are 17 + and possibly they don't treat until over 18) children still have to go through paediatric gender clinics."

CMagic is for 17-plus, so teenagers, school-age children. Teenagers who are looking at the adult world, the trusted, beloved NHS, and see them promoting the idea that you step through their doors and they can perform magic on you.

I totally agree. I just don't want to give anyone the impression these clinics are treating young children with puberty blockers which is what the article in the OP is about.

Datun is correct of course that these 17+ year olds don't appear out of nowhere or live in a vacuum uninfluenced by anything else prior to being referred to an informed consent clinic.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 05/10/2021 12:56

Abigail Shrier notes the huge increase in girls who wants to transition compared to boys. She states that adolescent girls are harder hit by the negative effects of social media than boys

The recent revelations about Facebook's algorithms and their internal reports about Instagram would validate this. (There's been a lot of recent coverage in the UK press but there was a tiny thread here.)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4350514-Facebook-Knows-Instagram-Is-Toxic-for-Teen-Girls-Company-Documents-Show