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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Abigail Shrier - Marci Bowers - critical of puberty blockers

250 replies

ArabellaScott · 04/10/2021 22:32

Well, this seems potentially very important.

Marci Bowers, well known surgeon who has treated many 'trans children' is critical of the usage of puberty blockers in this interview with Abigail Shrier. Bowers and a fellow medic call the treatment of 'trans children/young people' reckless and sloppy.

Bowers is slated to lead WPATH as of next year.

bariweiss.substack.com/p/top-trans-doctors-blow-the-whistle

OP posts:
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littlbrowndog · 05/10/2021 17:02

They’re not as functional. FFS these are young people starting out on life

TheWeeDonkey · 05/10/2021 17:03

I can remember seeing a clip of I am Jazz and it stuck with me because they were a teen about 16 at that point and was asking their parents what an orgasm feels like "Is it like sneezing?"

Imagine that, a 16 yo boy not knowing how to orgasm, and asking mum about it too?

(I know thats TMI but I have sons, thats why it shocked me)

OhHolyJesus · 05/10/2021 17:38

I remembered a clip of Jazz after the first surgery, (which I watched again more recently on the Exulansic you tube which has been shared already) of mother Jeanette simultaneously gaslighting and taking the piss out of Jazz.

After the first surgery (I think) Jazz tried to go for a wee, this resulted in a bleed. Jeanette joked it was hardly any blood at all because "wait til you start your period" followed by "women don't put sanitary napkins down the toilet", therefore reminding Jazz that this is a female act Jazz doesn't know.

It's the cruelest abuse, 'affirming' in one breath and ridiculing in the next.

I'm not at all surprised that the cash cow is being further exploited in another tv series.

When you're whole family is wrapped up in this how can you extricate yourself?

IvyTwines2 · 05/10/2021 18:03

Have you seen that clip of Jazz's mother where she says ''I will be so mad if she goes away to college and that thing seals up....I have woken Jazz out of a dead sleep and taken the dilator and put the lubrication on it and said: ‘Here! You take this, and you put it in your vagina. If not, I will"', then goes on to say 'I will wring her neck' with a throttling gesture to camera.

TheWeeDonkey · 05/10/2021 18:11

So there are parents who are losing custody of their children because they don't want their minors to have these life changing surgeries, but this mum is being made a celebrity?

Make it make sense.

OhHolyJesus · 05/10/2021 18:17

@IvyTwines2

Have you seen that clip of Jazz's mother where she says ''I will be so mad if she goes away to college and that thing seals up....I have woken Jazz out of a dead sleep and taken the dilator and put the lubrication on it and said: ‘Here! You take this, and you put it in your vagina. If not, I will"', then goes on to say 'I will wring her neck' with a throttling gesture to camera.
Yes, and I can't see that as anything other than a physical threat, on top of the years of mental and emotional abuse.

How she spoke about this whilst drinking wine with friends ("we have a dialation problem") is as shocking at to the situation she considered that appropriate as well as the actual words she used.

The TV production company is also culpable in my view. They all need a big fat lawsuit laid at their doors.

pickingdaisies · 05/10/2021 18:20

I'd like to make the numpty who wrote yesterday's episode of Doctors watch those videos. It included the gem that most detransitioners do so because of family pressure. Tucked in amongst a cornucopia of anti-gc rhetoric.

Packingsoapandwater · 05/10/2021 18:58

After the first surgery (I think) Jazz tried to go for a wee, this resulted in a bleed. Jeanette joked it was hardly any blood at all because "wait til you start your period" followed by "women don't put sanitary napkins down the toilet".

Woah. I don't not where to even start with that. Has Jazz just been constantly lied to by his mother in this way?

JemimaTab · 05/10/2021 19:23

Jazz started this journey as a very young child, accompanied by TV cameras and a big fanfare and with books published about it, etc. Lots of pressure from the family too, especially the mother. I have no doubt that Jazz would have found it very difficult to back out. And I think their expectations of the surgery were also highly unrealistic - I think they were given to expect a perfect woman’s body complete with functional vagina, plus boyfriend/sex, but all they’ve had is pain and yet more surgery.
It’s clear that the surgery has been a disaster - Jazz has had several revisions, and there’s now extensive scarring at the top of their leg where I assume flesh was harvested for one of the surgeries. Jazz seems desperately unhappy and has also piled on a huge amount of weight in a very short time. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s legal action there at some point against Jazz’s doctors (possibly even against the parents?). I think the doctors must be well aware that this is not a case to be proud of, and the cameras recorded it all.

OhHolyJesus · 05/10/2021 19:45

Has Jazz just been constantly lied to by his mother in this way?

Jazz repeats the claim that aged two, Jazz asked Jeanette (and presumably never mentioned the same to the father...how odd) when the fairy was going to come and make him into a girl (using sex based pronouns for ease based on the age and sex of the child at the time). I believe that the word 'Vagina' was included in the quote and this would make Jazz some kind of linguistic savant at aged 2.

Some might say that it was the advanced grip and understanding of language that made Jazz different from other children at that age.

I think Jeanette has also been clear that she was convinced Jazz would be a girl when she was pregnant, with her fourth and final child.

TimeToDateAgain · 05/10/2021 19:55

@TheWeeDonkey

So there are parents who are losing custody of their children because they don't want their minors to have these life changing surgeries, but this mum is being made a celebrity?

Make it make sense.

I can't. Furthermore, I wouldn't want to be in a world where I could make sense of it.

It's not comforting but I'd rather be in a world of material reality than to tolerate a world where the relevant professions and organisations have lost their sense of ethics and moral compass to this extent.

MoltenLasagne · 05/10/2021 20:31

I've not watched any of the Jazz episodes before but I was very uncomfortable to see that as Jazz is having an intimate examination of the failed surgical site, that not only are there two surgeons and Jeanette there, but that the camera keeps on bloody filming. How on earth is that ethical? The whole thing just makes my head reel.

FlyingOink · 05/10/2021 20:47

@ANewCreation

When I asked Bowers if she still thought puberty blockers were a good idea, from a surgical perspective, she said: “This is typical of medicine. We zig and then we zag, and I think maybe we zigged a little too far to the left in some cases.” She added “I think there was naivete on the part of pediatric endocrinologists who were proponents of early [puberty] blockade thinking that just this magic can happen, that surgeons can do anything.”

This seems to be the same sidestep dance/siloed thinking that the Tavistock are engaged in.

Psychiatrists have completed the exact same medical degree as surgeons and physicians in the UK and have to spend the early part of their career working as junior doctors doing medical and surgical jobs before specialising in mental health medicine.

In the Tavistock's case the initial assessing clinicians are, almost without exception, not medical doctors (psychiatrists) but rather psychologists (academic doctors) so they are not allowed to prescribe medication.

Their training does not require them to understand how the human body works as a whole organism, they haven't assisted in surgery, done attachments in paediatrics/obs and gyne/urology, aren't aware of the side effects/interactions of medication etc.

They therefore have to pass the prescription buck to the (medical doctor) endocrinologists, who naturally assume that a) a full capacity assessment has been done and b) the medical evidence for prescribing blockers/X sex hormones as the gold standard treatment for gender dysphoria is incontrovertible. Because, presumably, suicide.

Endocrinologists will have all been through a psychiatry rotation at medical school but their sole focus would be on what is possible to do with hormones, they respond to what other medics are asking for - so the idea that they were the proponents driving early puberty blockade is nonsense.

Now here is a surgeon - the god complex stereotype of surgeons is not without foundation - who has benefited from late transition personally but early transition financially - blaming others for this scandal... well, I can't say what I would like to without getting a strike and I get it, golden bridge and all that... And I like the way that Abigail Shrier let them speak - so last word to Marci.

Bowers draws the line at the colon. “I never use the colon,” she said. “It’s the last resort. You can get colon cancer. If it’s used sexually, you can get this chronic colitis that has to be treated over time. And it’s just in the discharge and the nasty appearance and it doesn’t smell like vagina.”

Nope. Not creepy at all.

The Tavistock dropped endocrinologists in it too. A lot of finger pointing.
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 05/10/2021 20:59

@OhHolyJesus

Has Jazz just been constantly lied to by his mother in this way?

Jazz repeats the claim that aged two, Jazz asked Jeanette (and presumably never mentioned the same to the father...how odd) when the fairy was going to come and make him into a girl (using sex based pronouns for ease based on the age and sex of the child at the time). I believe that the word 'Vagina' was included in the quote and this would make Jazz some kind of linguistic savant at aged 2.

Some might say that it was the advanced grip and understanding of language that made Jazz different from other children at that age.

I think Jeanette has also been clear that she was convinced Jazz would be a girl when she was pregnant, with her fourth and final child.

Wasn't there a hypnosis session as well, where Jazz described an alternate reality where they were a gay man?

Jazz's mother has a lot to answer for IMO

FlyingOink · 05/10/2021 21:06

@unwashedanddazed

In addition to blockers stopping pubertal development, the use of oestrogen further shrinks what development has managed to happen. So the 11year old will in fact have the genitals of a much younger child. I won't go into details but exact measurements were aired on I Am Jazz and they were shocking.
Jazz is Jewish and would have been circumcised. My understanding is that if it was done by a mohel it would have been "freehand" but many (most?) American boys who are circumcised have this done with a gomco clamp or a plastibell. This might get deleted, but the pic shows the extent of skin removal depending on the "style" of circumcision. There's not much artistry in the use of the gomco or plastibell and the end result is a very obvious scar. Perhaps the "high and tight" style circumcision was done on Jazz, resulting in much less penile skin than other types of circumcision. In any case it's going to limit the amount of tissue to work with for penile inversion surgery.
Abigail Shrier - Marci Bowers - critical of puberty blockers
EdgeOfACoin · 05/10/2021 21:15

Wasn't there a hypnosis session as well, where Jazz described an alternate reality where they were a gay man?

Yes, it was a 'past life regression' therapy session. Jazz described a past life where they were a closeted gay man.

You would think that might merit further consideration and reflection on the part of those people trying to help Jazz. Spoiler alert: it didn't.

PearPickingPorky · 05/10/2021 21:35

I wonder how the Cass Review is progressing 👀

LobsterNapkin · 05/10/2021 22:45

@EdgeOfACoin

Wasn't there a hypnosis session as well, where Jazz described an alternate reality where they were a gay man?

Yes, it was a 'past life regression' therapy session. Jazz described a past life where they were a closeted gay man.

You would think that might merit further consideration and reflection on the part of those people trying to help Jazz. Spoiler alert: it didn't.

I've heard people speculate a few times that Jazz might have grown up to be a gay man without intervention, but I am not totally comfortable with that as an assumption, apart from the same chance as any kid. At age two I don't think that's really something anyone can speculate about, and after that the poor kids was so messed with in the head I can't see how there could be any real clarity. Plus the puberty blockers and estrogen seems to have suppressed any sexual interests.
Alekto · 05/10/2021 23:16

Just seen this posted on Twitter. Sounds like another WPATH person casting doubt on their previous position, this time in a podcast. twitter.com/stilltish/status/1445381795491553287?s=21

Cwenthryth · 05/10/2021 23:38

Woah. The person speaking in the podcast linked in that tweet, is the Chair of the WPATH Child and Adolescent Committee. Voicing concerns about the affirmation-only model being used for children.

Amazing!!!!!

Why the fuck is this all just in podcasts and substacks? Where are the proper investigative journalists, even LGB/T news outlets? WPATH statements?

TimeToDateAgain · 05/10/2021 23:56

[quote Alekto]Just seen this posted on Twitter. Sounds like another WPATH person casting doubt on their previous position, this time in a podcast. twitter.com/stilltish/status/1445381795491553287?s=21[/quote]
I can't get this to open - do you know the name of the podcast, please and I'll find it.

334bu · 06/10/2021 00:01

Here is a screenshot of tweet

Abigail Shrier - Marci Bowers - critical of puberty blockers
TimeToDateAgain · 06/10/2021 00:06

@334bu

Here is a screenshot of tweet
Thank you. For anyone else having a problem, this is a link to one platform for the podcast episode:

www.podcastone.com/episode/What-Do-We-Mean-By-Gender-Affirming-Care-A-Conversation-with-Dr-Laura-Edwards-Leeper

ANewCreation · 06/10/2021 00:58

It's been the case for years that all roads lead to WPATH, so is something actually going on at WPATH behind the scenes to cause this sudden flurry?
Are they maybe aware of lawsuits coming?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/10/2021 08:19

I think it came up as part of the Webberley case that the WPATH guidelines are currently being reviewed and updated. This could be interesting...