Andrew Marr, Lib Dem leader what is wrong with the phrase woman: adult human female

[FemaleAndLearning]

Sunday 19th Sept 925am.
He won't answer the question. Andrew Marr keeps pushing.

[quote Cam77]@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken
Everything is reverent to everyone. But I think the state of the economy, housing, jobs, and the NHS are more important to more women in the UK than what we call some random person who has a penis but claims to feel like a female.[/quote]
Well then you’re very privileged.
What about the women in rape crisis centres being bullied into sharing spaces with males?
What about women in prison forced to share spaces with males?
What about women who don’t want to shower with males with penises 30cm from them?
What about women who say “no”?

If you can't see sex based problems relating to poverty which include housing, treatment at school, abusive relationships, career development, health related issues then you aren't going to solve a lot of the practical problems women have.

This.

Really, once as a political party you've told female people that you're intent on pretending they don't exist, can't be named and you can't see them, then as a female voter there's fuck all point in bothering with anything else that party may do.

@RedToothBrush
Not entirely sure the point you’re making, but I think I agree.
I’m not saying the trans debate is irrelevant. But I think there are other issues which affect people - particularly women, much more strongly and deeply. The huge structural inequalities and injustices in this country - and here I include those of wealth/class but also sex and geography - related to income, and healthcare, and life expectancy, etc. will never get addressed while we let - even encourage - our politicians and media to distract the electorate with things like ... the trans argument, a few boats of illegal immigrants arriving in Dover, a couple of statues getting vandalized, whether we are all “woke” enough on race etc Basically all the culture war nonsense.

@MordenLarch

God that was embarrassing to watch. What a fool. Thank god lots of people would have seen it

For a second I thought you meant Mishy's post then I saw the word "watch".

[quote Cam77]@RedToothBrush
Not entirely sure the point you’re making, but I think I agree.
I’m not saying the trans debate is irrelevant. But I think there are other issues which affect people - particularly women, much more strongly and deeply. The huge structural inequalities and injustices in this country - and here I include those of wealth/class but also sex and geography - related to income, and healthcare, and life expectancy, etc. will never get addressed while we let - even encourage - our politicians and media to distract the electorate with things like ... the trans argument, a few boats of illegal immigrants arriving in Dover, a couple of statues getting vandalized, whether we are all “woke” enough on race etc Basically all the culture war nonsense.[/quote]
Because if there’s no such thing as women, as females, then how can they be protected in any meaningful way?

I’m so very bored of being told that we can deal with women’s issues once every other problem this country faces is dealt with first!

I cannot trust any party who can’t name that a woman is an adult human female on anything. How can I trust them not to be captured by some other ridiculous ideology in the future?

And how on Earth can you begin to tackle structural inequality against women when the definition of women includes men?

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken
What about the women in rape crisis centres being bullied into sharing spaces with males?
I think the fact that women are being raped is a far greater issue to deal with and try to put a stop to than the probably less than 1% of those victims who might then be affected by transdefinition.

What about women in prison forced to share spaces with males?
I think the fact that prisons are overflowing with men (many having committed violent acts against innocent men and women) is a far greater societal problem than the less than 1% of women who might be affected by transdefintion.

Unfortunately the destruction of the truth matters:

“The great analysts of truth and language in politics”—writes McGill University political philosophy professor Jacob T. Levy—including “George Orwell, Hannah Arendt, Vaclav Havel—can help us recognize this kind of lie for what it is…. Saying something obviously untrue, and making your subordinates repeat it with a straight face in their own voice, is a particularly startling display of power over them. It’s something that was endemic to totalitarianism.”

Arendt and others recognized, writes Levy, that “being made to repeat an obvious lie makes it clear that you’re powerless.”

For a party that calls itself the Liberal Democrats to do this is rather fundamental.

It means that power comes from above rather than is representative.

It means grass roots issues are over looked when deemed unimportant or irrelevant by the leadership.

Anything that does suit their needs and agenda isn't important enough to be recognised.

So important issues take a back seat if they don't serve the interests of the leaders.

So what is the point in voting for them if they are going to ignore you anyway?

Over 40% of transwomen in our prisons are there for sexual crimes as opposed to 19% of the general male prison population.
But, you’re not locked up with them, so why would you care?

But violence against women and girls is an epidemic

So if you can’t describe who they are then how can you stop it

I’m not saying the trans debate is irrelevant. But I think there are other issues which affect people - particularly women, much more strongly and deeply.

But if you think men can be women if they say they are, what does 'particularly women' refer to?

Denial that the category of women even exists means that you can't tackle any problems which women face. You have used the words 'women' and 'sex' in your post, but also implied that categorisation of people in this way is irrelevant. Which do you believe? Is sex irrelevant or not?

It is amazing watching the results of #no debate in action.

There he is with all his mantras and training, using Boris as his diversionary squirrel and not mentioning the word woman.

The world just moves on round him.

I think the 'cross-party consensus' to which Ed Davey is alluding is the back-room stitch-up involving Tories like Maria Miller, Crispin Blunt and Penny Mordaunt, and to some extent Theresa May, Amber Rudd and Nicky Morgan, before people in the Party with better political instincts got wind of it and understood the implications.

Liz Truss then scuppered that back-room stitch-up at Boris Johnson's behest, took the flack, and has been duly rewarded with one of the great offices of state.

The careers of Miller, Mordaunt, etc are not doing so well. Blunt is a non-entity with just his APPG for company - and APPGs are under scrutiny now for obvious conflicts of interest.

Thanks for the transcript @Mummyoflittledragon.

@Cam77
The trans argument is 100% about women and the structure of society.

And it’s international, global. I found this article interesting. Whether or not you agree, with this article, the Americans apparently spent obscene amounts of money to indoctrinate the Afghans on TWAW TMAM. Ludicrous considering the Taliban has no issue in observing who is male and female. spectatorworld.com/topic/did-gender-studies-lose-afghanistan/

@Theeyeballsinthesky
Because if there’s no such thing as women, as females, then how can they be protected in any meaningful way?
Because we are all people and all people should feel safe and protected from violence and poverty under the law/in a decent and civilized society.

I’d rather we spend the next decade focusing on stopping violent men commiting domestic violence against women, rather than getting tongue tied about whether that 1 victim in 1000 should have been described as a transwoman /female/male woman/Sheman or whatever the hell.

Because if there’s no such thing as women, as females, then how can they be protected in any meaningful way?

Quite.

"You don't exist, we've excluded you from politics and you can't have anything yourself but responsibly you should put your own needs aside and vote about improving what everyone else has. That you don't. But good women are selfless and just have the scraps left over when everyone else has eaten'.

That is what is meant by 'cis'.

It's sexism having hit delusional levels. No. Fuck that. Fuck that to the ruddy far side of fuck.

@Helleofabore

Thank you mummyoflittledragon. Awesome transcribing!

Totally agree. Seeing it written down like that, insane .

It's about as mad as telling lesbian women that they should not selfishly prioritise their own orgasms, but selflessly provide sexual comfort to those vulnerable male people most in need of it.

I’d rather we spend the next decade focusing on stopping violent men commiting domestic violence against women, rather than getting tongue tied about whether that 1 victim in 1000 should have been described as a transwoman /female/male woman/Sheman or whatever the hell.

Unless you define men and women in this scenario you wish to end, then it is just "person on person" violence and the same as any other. In the absence of definition, the persons with the least political clout will get their needs met last.

Because we are all people and all people should feel safe and protected from violence and poverty under the law/in a decent and civilized society.

Ahhhhh like “All lives matter”?

Someone may have already said this, so apologies if they have.......
I haven't seen the programme.
But reading what posters here are saying about how Ed Davey performed, it has made me realise how ineffectual the Lib Dems, supposedly one of our three main political parties, have become.
Coupled with the weak leadership within the Labour party, there currently seems to be no prospect of ANY party being capable of getting rid of the bastard Tories 😡

Basically all the culture war nonsense.

Dismissing what is happening to women and the assault on our rights as "culture war nonsense" suggest that you've not been paying attention, or that you're quite happy for the bien pensant to decide for you what is and isn't important - by that I mean that anything that has been deemed to have the taint of "culture wars" upon it doesn't need to be given any time or consideration as it can't possibly have any validity.

That's your prerogative, but it smacks of condescension to come on this board and basically tell us not to worry as almost everything else is so much more important - once again women and girls and their rights are to be subjugated until "after the revolution, love".

No thank you.

Oh wow mummyoflittledragons!thanks for transcribing.

None of it makes sense at all. I almost feel embarrassed for him.

When you actually see it written done it's almost mind blowingingly pathetic. Lots of words and nonsense!!

[quote Cam77]@Theeyeballsinthesky
Because if there’s no such thing as women, as females, then how can they be protected in any meaningful way?
Because we are all people and all people should feel safe and protected from violence and poverty under the law/in a decent and civilized society.

I’d rather we spend the next decade focusing on stopping violent men commiting domestic violence against women, rather than getting tongue tied about whether that 1 victim in 1000 should have been described as a transwoman /female/male woman/Sheman or whatever the hell.[/quote]
The police watchdog have just said that there is a particular problem with violence against women which is on a parr with problems with terrorism.

If you are doing everything you can to cover this up - such as saying known male sex offenders are women, then you may have a few issues tackling crime against women....