Andrew Marr, Lib Dem leader what is wrong with the phrase woman: adult human female

[FemaleAndLearning]

Sunday 19th Sept 925am.
He won't answer the question. Andrew Marr keeps pushing.

But the report published a couple of days ago about the epidemic of violence didn’t use the word people. The report said women

And if we have an political leader to afraid to use the word women where does that leave that report ?

There’s an epidemic of violence against people ?

Then there’s the obvious question that follows. Who are these people ?

And who is committed violence against these people. ?

@RedToothBrush

Unfortunately the destruction of the truth matters:

“The great analysts of truth and language in politics”—writes McGill University political philosophy professor Jacob T. Levy—including “George Orwell, Hannah Arendt, Vaclav Havel—can help us recognize this kind of lie for what it is…. Saying something obviously untrue, and making your subordinates repeat it with a straight face in their own voice, is a particularly startling display of power over them. It’s something that was endemic to totalitarianism.”

Arendt and others recognized, writes Levy, that “being made to repeat an obvious lie makes it clear that you’re powerless.”

For a party that calls itself the Liberal Democrats to do this is rather fundamental.

It means that power comes from above rather than is representative.

It means grass roots issues are over looked when deemed unimportant or irrelevant by the leadership.

Anything that does suit their needs and agenda isn't important enough to be recognised.

So important issues take a back seat if they don't serve the interests of the leaders.

So what is the point in voting for them if they are going to ignore you anyway?

Yes @RedToothBrush, we are seeing this in action. Chilling.

Imagine being a lesbian and then being told you have to suck up homophobic redefinitions of homosexuality.

I think you would find it a bit of an issue...

enabled no doubt by many Tony Blair type liberals in the Labour Party who couldn’t care less about the less well off in this country and only care about fringe woke issues and who America is going to bomb next
Women and girls’ sex based rights are not ‘fringe woke issues’, for fucks sake.

@MandyMotherOfBrian

enabled no doubt by many Tony Blair type liberals in the Labour Party who couldn’t care less about the less well off in this country and only care about fringe woke issues and who America is going to bomb next Women and girls’ sex based rights are not ‘fringe woke issues’, for fucks sake.

They are if you are middle aged or older white middle class male.

@MishyJDI

Most trans women I talk to identify readily as adult human females, and transmen as adult human males. So I don't really see the issue, other than it being a dog whistle for attempted crass segregation.

dog whistle for attempted crass segregation

You know that just saying a thing is not the same as is actually being true, right?

Female people have good reasons to differentiate themselves from male in certain political, social and legal contexts and these reasons are nothing whatsoever to do with gender and everything to do with the sex of their bodies. It's not "crass segregation" unless you believe anything that female people can experience which males can't is so trivial as to be entirely irrelevant to anyone's life.

Is that what you believe? That if a female can experience it but a male can't it's not worth noticing?

Do you believe that the half of the human race who share both female anatomy* and the experience of who society treats people with that anatomy, who have historically suffered explicit legal discrimination and today still suffer the aftereffects of that through a society that is structurally and systematically sexist, can have no valid need to name themselves, name their oppression and organise as a political force to champion what they need?

(* to make myself clear, not "i feel female" anatomy but the objectively observable features that have been classed as female (or the equivalent words in other languages) for as long as humans have had language. Feel free to substitute "AFAB" if you prefer that term. We both know you know exactly what I mean. )

@MishyJDI

Most trans women I talk to identify readily as adult human females, and transmen as adult human males. So I don't really see the issue, other than it being a dog whistle for attempted crass segregation.

I readily identify as a tall, beautiful, slim 25 year old. Sadly ‘identifying as’ is not the same as ‘being’. 😂

I think the fact that prisons are overflowing with men (many having committed violent acts against innocent men and women) is a far greater societal problem than the less than 1% of women who might be affected by transdefintion
That’s great, go and do something about that then, nothing stopping you.
But this is the Feminism board and we’re here to talk about the sex based rights of Women and Girls. Get over it.

@MandyMotherOfBrian

enabled no doubt by many Tony Blair type liberals in the Labour Party who couldn’t care less about the less well off in this country and only care about fringe woke issues and who America is going to bomb next Women and girls’ sex based rights are not ‘fringe woke issues’, for fucks sake.

They are if you are happy to ignore places like Afghanistan, ignore abuses by charities like Oxfam, think women in prison (and the reasons they get there) are irrelevant because these women are lesser humans, think inadequacies in health research and service provision are just fine and scandals are an inevitability...

[quote Cam77]@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken
Everything is reverent to everyone. But I think the state of the economy, housing, jobs, and the NHS are more important to more women in the UK than what we call some random person who has a penis but claims to feel like a female.[/quote]
It's not just random people though is it? There's a huge amount of political and corporate power behind redefining biology as irrelevant and enacting legislation that disregards women's rights.

If it was just a few people claiming ridiculous and blatantly untrue things but nobody was paying any attention to them, then no I suppose it wouldn't matter.

That's not the case though.

I’d rather we spend the next decade focusing on stopping violent men commiting domestic violence against women,

So would I. And all the women on the GC side. None of us decided that the definition of woman needed changing to include men. None of us wants to spend time on making sure there is a word for women that means women.

How about you ask trans people to agree to keep the prefix trans and push for trans specific spaces where needed and women can get on with fighting old-fashioned sexism instead of this new type?

I would like Ed Davey and Mishy to explain how a cervical smear is performed on a trans woman and a prostate examination on a trans man.......I suspect the answer would be silence.

They are if you understand levels of sexual assault are higher where women share public toilets and changing facilities with men. Particularly in the developing world.

But yeah never let that get in the way of a good argument.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Labour & the Lib Dem’s are being so monumentally stupid over this it beggars belief. It’s quite obvious it’s now going to be brought up a lot and even more so come election times. Is it really so hard to formulate a policy that says “women are women, Tw are TW, both have rights, these may at times conflict and we must be sure to protect both but not at the expense of women ” or some such?

The radical idea that policy should be based on reality rather than a lie.

@MishyJDI

Most trans women I talk to identify readily as adult human females, and transmen as adult human males. So I don't really see the issue, other than it being a dog whistle for attempted crass segregation.

So you hang out with people who don't understand reality?

The police watchdog have just said that there is a particular problem with violence against women which is on a parr with problems with terrorism.

If you are doing everything you can to cover this up - such as saying known male sex offenders are women, then you may have a few issues tackling crime against women....

Precisely, @RedToothBrush. You only have to look at what happened in California at the WiSpa, when a male bodied person who identified as female (an actual convicted sex offender) was allowed to enter the women's changing rooms and spa to expose their penis to the women and children there.

They are if you are middle aged or older white middle class male
Oh I see, hadn’t encountered that poster before, makes sense as only just stop short of the ‘more men are victims of violent crime than women’ line. Either that or one of those captured internal misogynists. Anyway, I promised myself I’d stop conversing with Sealions.

@RedToothBrush

Imagine being a lesbian and then being told you have to suck up homophobic redefinitions of homosexuality.

I think you would find it a bit of an issue...

Yes indeed. The 'cotton ceiling' is when male bodied women who identify as female and therefore lesbian want to get into the knickers of lesbians. They accuse lesbians of transphobia for saying "no, we love vaginas not dicks".

@Mummyoflittledragonum
Thank you for the transcription. I have learned something. I have just been reading a long article (The Sunday Times) on Rosie Duffield not being supported by the Labour Party.
Even the Speaker of the House is involved now in condemning the hate against her.
Where will all this go?
How much will develop before we see improvements? Change and reversal are a long way away.

[quote Cam77]@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken
Everything is reverent to everyone. But I think the state of the economy, housing, jobs, and the NHS are more important to more women in the UK than what we call some random person who has a penis but claims to feel like a female.[/quote]
But it's not just about "claims to feel like a female", is it? It's whether being born male but claiming to be a female, or a woman, also gives that person an automatic right to everything that was created for people born female, based on their needs as a disadvantaged as oppressed group, simply because the male person changed their label.

It's another of the genderist logical fails. "Oh why does it matter what people call themselves?" Because what they call themselves is then used as justification to open the doors for things that were never intended for them, rendering those things unfit for the people they were intended for.

@Mummyoflittledragon, that's an interesting article - horrifying too.

If this and Kier are the alternative.... then maybe the Tories aren’t so bad after all.

Tom Swarbrick discussing Rosie Duffield & trans issues now on LBC.

Ed's been properly out and about this week. Not doing himself any favours. Interesting that I don't exist but he still wants my vote. He can fuck right off.

Just watched the interview on iPlayer.

Ed davey. Omg. What a spineless man

And he totally got nailed by marr.

Unbelievable what I saw and davey blamed boris Johnston 🤣🤣🤣

Anyone watching it must have thought that davey was a fool.

Davey has a cheek complaining about “toxification of the debate” when it’s his party that’s been at the forefront of toxifying it.

I wish we would expect politicians and journalists to focus on the economy, housing, decent jobs, the NHS, and the environment ... rather than these endless culture war issues.

There is a kernel of truth in this, in that the purpose of culture war ID politics is to deflect attention and energy away from jobs, healthcare, etc. and prevent class-based politics gaining traction. It does not mean that destroying womens' rights is trivial, any more than caring about racism is trivial.