Andrew Marr, Lib Dem leader what is wrong with the phrase woman: adult human female

[FemaleAndLearning]

Sunday 19th Sept 925am.
He won't answer the question. Andrew Marr keeps pushing.

Marr is letting Davey dig himself into a whopping great hole.

@littlbrowndog

I missed this. Just saw Khan saying the old statistic the 1in 4 trans teens attempt suicide and are thmost vulnerable ever

A couple of days after violence against women and girls should be treated the same way as terrorism

He was being asked about violent threats to a woman

Not about trans anything.

Violent threats to Rosie duffield. A woman

Yes I think Marr had run out of steam with Kahn and let him duck out of the women issue .

If people are claiming to be female (sex) and women (gender) then in what way are they trans?

Sounds like Mishy is either trying to erase trans people, or that 'female' and 'woman' don't 'match' in the way that people keep insisting is the definition of trans.

There was a thread asking if 'woman' and 'female' were examples of a 'matching' gender and sex and weirdly no-one could answer.

Yes, Jo Swinson said explicitly, didn't she, that anybody who disagreed with that policy wasn't welcome in the party and they didn't want their votes either. That went well. Jo who?

I wish Marr had asked him about donations from Ferring.

Ed Davey's had time to think since his last outing and still makes a complete dog's breakfast of it.

He was saying that before Boris members of all parties who agree with him have been working together. Their cosy consensus has only been broken by Boris playing politics.

I also noticed on the single sex spaces bit he said a transman should be able to live as a man swerving away from penises in women's showers.

AM: Let’s try something else. Let’s talk about free speech. What is wrong with this phrase - woman: adult human female

ED: Well, the Liberal Democrats believe trans rights are er, really important because trans people are some of the most discriminated against in our society today, huge health problems, high suicide rate and I think everybody ought to worry about that. The real issue I think is the toxfication of the debate.

AM (interrupting) : What’s wrong with the phrase woman - adult human female

ED: I’ve made it clear on our position on trans right, no one can criticise me for that. What I’m concerned about is on this issue, we had been working cross party in the past, I’ve worked with Conservative MPs, who agree with me, Labour MPs, who agree with me. What’s changed is Boris Johnson coming to no 10. Boris Johnson has toxified this debate, he’s set up a culture war unit in no 10.

AM (interrupting) I do want to come back to this phrase. What is wrong with the phrase, can you explain what is wrong with the phrase - woman: adult human female.

ED Well, you, in fact the phrase doesn’t encapsulate the debate tbh. That’s what’s the problem with it. That the issue that we have been really clear is that a transwoman is a woman, a transman is a man and that is the issue that we are fairly fighting on. We believe that trans rights are human rights. But I do take you back to Boris Johnson. Because there was a time that, but, let’s face it, let’s be honest, these are difficult issues for many people.

AM I, I, try to keep off Boris Johnson and onto Ed Davy and the Liberal Democrats because the reason I keep using that phrase and I’m sure you is that one of your members Natalie Bird has been banned from standing as a Liberal Democrat in any circumstances for 10 years because she wore a t-shirt which had that slogan on it.

ED Well, we have a complaints issues and I’m not part of the totally independent and I can’t comment on an individual case. What I can say.

AM That is true what I’ve just told you. That is true and y’know the Liberal Democrat’s used to a tolerant, open party, keen for debate and above all keen for free speech. Now you disagree with Natalie Bird, she disagrees with you, but with that single phrase she has been cast out of your party. That’s not very liberal, is it?

ED Well, we absolutely believe in free speech but we also believe that we need to protect human rights and we believe in equality. And the reason I do keep coming back to Boris Johnson, and I make no apologies for that, is because the Liberal Democrats have been working with other parties. People in the Conservative party, the Labour Party, who share our view. And when Boris Johnson came, that cross party working ended and I think that’s really a shame. Because he’s trying to divide people. We should be bringing people together.

AM I’m particularly interested in your view in this interview for obvious reasons. Do you think that everywhere in society and I’m thinking of toilets, prisons, refuges, hospital wards should be open to everybody regardless of sex?

ED If you’re a transman, you should be able to operate as a man.

AM So the answer is yes, to my question.

ED Yes, I mean, we’ve made it very clear and what we’re concerned about is that there does need to be a debate in wider society. And that debate is not being had because of Boris Johnson’s failure to lead.

AM So to be absolutely clear. If you don’t agree that all spaces should be open to everyone regardless of sex, don’t vote Liberal Democrat.

ED Well, no. Because there are many reasons why people vote for different parties. We’re talking at our conference today about the need to deal with the Covid, er crisis, particularly for young children and young people. We want to give parents power so we can catch up on the lost learning, we want to look after carers, we want to tackle the climate crisis, we want to look after small businesses. So I’m sorry Andrew, when people vote, there’s a whole set of issues they vote on.

AM So disagree with us on that but agree with us on other issues. Right for now Sir Ed Davy, thanks very much for agreeing to coming in and taking to us.

ED thank you.

There seems to be a recent influx of people on posts (I seem to recall "anailly" saying similar) seeming to claim that trans people routinely lie about their sex (biological sex, not gender identity). It's very unpleasant and isn't my experience at all.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

Yes, Jo Swinson said explicitly, didn't she, that anybody who disagreed with that policy wasn't welcome in the party and they didn't want their votes either. That went well. Jo who?

Precisely

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER

This issue came up with someone (an evidently highly intelligent woman of 60 odd) who I was talking to at a do yesterday.

She dismissed the whole issue as ‘unimportant’ and something ‘just stirrred up by the Daily Mail’. I was frankly 😱
Especially since there was a major article about it in yesterday’s Times.

From other things she said it was evident that she’d never vote Tory, but she also dismissed the idea that this issue would lose both Lab and LDs a mass of women’s votes - unless they changed their stance.

I was told by several (male) LDs it was a 'fringe issue'. One was a LD who had a thing about Brexit and the destruction of the truth because of his family's experience in Poland post WWII under the Stasi.

I came to certain conclusions about LDs and sexism after that.

@Mummyoflittledragon

AM: Let’s try something else. Let’s talk about free speech. What is wrong with this phrase - woman: adult human female

ED: Well, the Liberal Democrats believe trans rights are er, really important because trans people are some of the most discriminated against in our society today, huge health problems, high suicide rate and I think everybody ought to worry about that. The real issue I think is the toxfication of the debate.

AM (interrupting) : What’s wrong with the phrase woman - adult human female

ED: I’ve made it clear on our position on trans right, no one can criticise me for that. What I’m concerned about is on this issue, we had been working cross party in the past, I’ve worked with Conservative MPs, who agree with me, Labour MPs, who agree with me. What’s changed is Boris Johnson coming to no 10. Boris Johnson has toxified this debate, he’s set up a culture war unit in no 10.

AM (interrupting) I do want to come back to this phrase. What is wrong with the phrase, can you explain what is wrong with the phrase - woman: adult human female.

ED Well, you, in fact the phrase doesn’t encapsulate the debate tbh. That’s what’s the problem with it. That the issue that we have been really clear is that a transwoman is a woman, a transman is a man and that is the issue that we are fairly fighting on. We believe that trans rights are human rights. But I do take you back to Boris Johnson. Because there was a time that, but, let’s face it, let’s be honest, these are difficult issues for many people.

AM I, I, try to keep off Boris Johnson and onto Ed Davy and the Liberal Democrats because the reason I keep using that phrase and I’m sure you is that one of your members Natalie Bird has been banned from standing as a Liberal Democrat in any circumstances for 10 years because she wore a t-shirt which had that slogan on it.

ED Well, we have a complaints issues and I’m not part of the totally independent and I can’t comment on an individual case. What I can say.

AM That is true what I’ve just told you. That is true and y’know the Liberal Democrat’s used to a tolerant, open party, keen for debate and above all keen for free speech. Now you disagree with Natalie Bird, she disagrees with you, but with that single phrase she has been cast out of your party. That’s not very liberal, is it?

ED Well, we absolutely believe in free speech but we also believe that we need to protect human rights and we believe in equality. And the reason I do keep coming back to Boris Johnson, and I make no apologies for that, is because the Liberal Democrats have been working with other parties. People in the Conservative party, the Labour Party, who share our view. And when Boris Johnson came, that cross party working ended and I think that’s really a shame. Because he’s trying to divide people. We should be bringing people together.

AM I’m particularly interested in your view in this interview for obvious reasons. Do you think that everywhere in society and I’m thinking of toilets, prisons, refuges, hospital wards should be open to everybody regardless of sex?

ED If you’re a transman, you should be able to operate as a man.

AM So the answer is yes, to my question.

ED Yes, I mean, we’ve made it very clear and what we’re concerned about is that there does need to be a debate in wider society. And that debate is not being had because of Boris Johnson’s failure to lead.

AM So to be absolutely clear. If you don’t agree that all spaces should be open to everyone regardless of sex, don’t vote Liberal Democrat.

ED Well, no. Because there are many reasons why people vote for different parties. We’re talking at our conference today about the need to deal with the Covid, er crisis, particularly for young children and young people. We want to give parents power so we can catch up on the lost learning, we want to look after carers, we want to tackle the climate crisis, we want to look after small businesses. So I’m sorry Andrew, when people vote, there’s a whole set of issues they vote on.

AM So disagree with us on that but agree with us on other issues. Right for now Sir Ed Davy, thanks very much for agreeing to coming in and taking to us.

ED thank you.

Thanks for this! Trying to bring Boris Johnson into it because he can't face saying out loud that he believes a dictionary definition is wrong.

Pathetic.

Oh my god, I had totally missed that about Natalie Bird - that's unbelievable!

What the hell are these people thinking?!

I thought Andrew Marr was great in this interview. It has really put me off voting for the Liberal Democrats (as I often have in the past).

Trying to bring Boris Johnson into it because he can't face saying out loud that he believes a dictionary definition is wrong.

he doesn't believe the dictionary definition is wrong

literally no-one is stupid enough to believe that some men could gestate a baby.

that's what makes it all the worse somehow. People pretending to believe harmful nonsense because they think it will benefit them in some way

I am glad to see that the Natalie Bird story is not dying a death and is haunting them. it should. Her version of events is accurate.

Ed Daley kept trying to say something about Boris Johnson stirring up division with regards to this.

Why? I may well have missed something- especially in these days of selective reporting- bu what has Boris Johnson said about Women spaces, Transwomen, adult human females etc?

Ed Daley tried to say the “adult human female” wasn’t the issue, but it is as far as I am concerned. Andrew Marr was good, as was the man on the Today program, but I wish interviewers would take it back to basics and ask the party leaders “what is a woman?”.

Thank you mummyoflittledragon. Awesome transcribing!

@Mummyoflittledragon

AM: Let’s try something else. Let’s talk about free speech. What is wrong with this phrase - woman: adult human female

ED: Well, the Liberal Democrats believe trans rights are er, really important because trans people are some of the most discriminated against in our society today, huge health problems, high suicide rate and I think everybody ought to worry about that. The real issue I think is the toxfication of the debate.

AM (interrupting) : What’s wrong with the phrase woman - adult human female

ED: I’ve made it clear on our position on trans right, no one can criticise me for that. What I’m concerned about is on this issue, we had been working cross party in the past, I’ve worked with Conservative MPs, who agree with me, Labour MPs, who agree with me. What’s changed is Boris Johnson coming to no 10. Boris Johnson has toxified this debate, he’s set up a culture war unit in no 10.

AM (interrupting) I do want to come back to this phrase. What is wrong with the phrase, can you explain what is wrong with the phrase - woman: adult human female.

ED Well, you, in fact the phrase doesn’t encapsulate the debate tbh. That’s what’s the problem with it. That the issue that we have been really clear is that a transwoman is a woman, a transman is a man and that is the issue that we are fairly fighting on. We believe that trans rights are human rights. But I do take you back to Boris Johnson. Because there was a time that, but, let’s face it, let’s be honest, these are difficult issues for many people.

AM I, I, try to keep off Boris Johnson and onto Ed Davy and the Liberal Democrats because the reason I keep using that phrase and I’m sure you is that one of your members Natalie Bird has been banned from standing as a Liberal Democrat in any circumstances for 10 years because she wore a t-shirt which had that slogan on it.

ED Well, we have a complaints issues and I’m not part of the totally independent and I can’t comment on an individual case. What I can say.

AM That is true what I’ve just told you. That is true and y’know the Liberal Democrat’s used to a tolerant, open party, keen for debate and above all keen for free speech. Now you disagree with Natalie Bird, she disagrees with you, but with that single phrase she has been cast out of your party. That’s not very liberal, is it?

ED Well, we absolutely believe in free speech but we also believe that we need to protect human rights and we believe in equality. And the reason I do keep coming back to Boris Johnson, and I make no apologies for that, is because the Liberal Democrats have been working with other parties. People in the Conservative party, the Labour Party, who share our view. And when Boris Johnson came, that cross party working ended and I think that’s really a shame. Because he’s trying to divide people. We should be bringing people together.

AM I’m particularly interested in your view in this interview for obvious reasons. Do you think that everywhere in society and I’m thinking of toilets, prisons, refuges, hospital wards should be open to everybody regardless of sex?

ED If you’re a transman, you should be able to operate as a man.

AM So the answer is yes, to my question.

ED Yes, I mean, we’ve made it very clear and what we’re concerned about is that there does need to be a debate in wider society. And that debate is not being had because of Boris Johnson’s failure to lead.

AM So to be absolutely clear. If you don’t agree that all spaces should be open to everyone regardless of sex, don’t vote Liberal Democrat.

ED Well, no. Because there are many reasons why people vote for different parties. We’re talking at our conference today about the need to deal with the Covid, er crisis, particularly for young children and young people. We want to give parents power so we can catch up on the lost learning, we want to look after carers, we want to tackle the climate crisis, we want to look after small businesses. So I’m sorry Andrew, when people vote, there’s a whole set of issues they vote on.

AM So disagree with us on that but agree with us on other issues. Right for now Sir Ed Davy, thanks very much for agreeing to coming in and taking to us.

ED thank you.

Thank you for this. Confirmed to me even more Ed Davey's complete lack of intelligence and coherence. How embarrassing for him.

I was reading an article yesterday where an MP described a straight woman as a cis het. Is that what we are now? It was Michael Gove (twat).

ED: I’ve made it clear on our position on trans right, no one can criticise me for that.

That smacks of 'please don't hurt me, I did what you told me to do!'

But also why, when he is asked about women does he immediately talk about trans rights?

Times Radio news presenter just referred to Rosie Duffield as being 'more on the feminist side' of the trans debate, so I'm impressed by that. Almost makes up for having that git Tatchell on yesterday to denigrate Kemi Badenoch for totally unsubstantiated quotes.

You’re welcome. I’ve just reread the transcript without listening the the words. The transcript is even worse tbh. He’s a complete imbecile, isn’t he?! How can anyone, who is obviously relatively intelligent be so blindingly stupid? The mind boggles. I just don’t get it at all.

ED: I’ve made it clear on our position on trans right, no one can criticise me for that.

Erm. Yes they can.

Its called holding power to account.

I would have thought that a leader of an opposition political party in the UK may have grasped this concept. Especially one whose party is called the 'liberal democrats'.

Its a cowards cope out response designed to silence and end the conversations.

Sadly for Mr Davey this isn't how liberal democracy works...

@MishyJDI

Most trans women I talk to identify readily as adult human females, and transmen as adult human males. So I don't really see the issue, other than it being a dog whistle for attempted crass segregation.

I think this is a terrible thing to say about trans people. Not all transwomen and transmen are intent on denying sex or trampling on the boundaries of those who seek to use sex based services.

Thanks for the transcription - what a twit.

People are free to believe whatever they like. If they respect that other people are under no obligation to conform to their beliefs, or demand that other people give up their own rights and subordinate themselves.

TW cannot have access to all female spaces without excluding females from any spaces at all, and removing female rights. It comes down to a basic question of: do the desires of males outweigh permitting female people's rights and needs and preferences?

Ed Davey's answer is yes.

Male supremacism. Male choice and need trumps female, no discussion.

Which, as Andrew Marr has pointed out, is what you're voting for if you vote Lib Dem. You'd have to be out of your fucking tree to do that if you were born female.