Ed Davy on R4 Today - there should not be safe places for women

[42SrauvP]

Quite jarring to hear him say it out loud but yes, this white man has stated love on the radio that there should be no spaces where biological males can’t go.
Just before 8am.

Thank you. I’ve used those arguments (literally) as well as vulnerable women in shelters, female prisons, even changing rooms in shops and swimming pools. He still feels I’m being bigoted against trans women.

I have no idea where this opinion came from. Dad pretty much shares my views. I’m sorry, but they’re basic.

If a person born with male genetia believes they were born into the wrong body, that’s A ok with me. So, have gender reassignment surgery and I will completely accept you as the woman you are.

If you choose to keep your make genetalia, you are biologically make and ought therefore to be excluded from female only spaces.

He’s a kind, gentle, thoughtful, caring young man about most things. Just don’t know where this came from (he identifies as an heterosexual male).

He doesn’t identity as a heterosexual male he IS a heterosexual male and under such circumstances women’s rights are not his ti give away. I wouldn’t bother discussing it with him any further tbh

If he genuinely thinks that men in women’s sports are fine or that women who have been raped or assaulted should be forced to share spaces with men who identify as women then really there’s nothing to discuss….

How has he got an identity. He’s just a straight dude

How’s he thinking that you are bigoted ?

Ask him about the 200 million women and girls living with FGM

or the femicide rates in Mexico

Ask him how they can identify out of that

Men without penis are not women. They are just men without penis

He don’t seem to have thought this through. The word bigot really easy to use.

Really hard to justify

Yeah our rights are not for a man to give away.

Just say that to him

Ask him what he has in common with all men and transmen that he does not have in common with any women or transwomen. What makes someone a man? What makes someone a woman? What does he mean by 'gender identity'? If he had never been born a male and socialised as a male, how would he know he was a man? How does he know that he would be unhappy if he had been born with a female body and socialised as a female?

I think it's just a case of getting him to think carefully about these issues. Also, point out that realistically he will never be negatively impacted by treating mtf transitioners as women. He will never be disadvantaged by them in sport. He will never be in a WiSpa situation. It's easy to give away other people's rights and protections.

@Feelingoktoday

I would ask him how he would feel if :- When you are an elderly woman and need intimate care and ask for female carers and a Trans woman turns up and you have no say as gender is now a protected characteristic and not sex; His daughter plays football and the girls team starts recruiting trans girls as they are stronger. His daughter loses her place.

We can still be kind but you can’t change sex and women should not lose their protected characteristic for men.

No point.

99% of the people saying this sort of thing don't believe it for a second.

They're saying it because somehow it's been accepted in these parties that a woman is whatever a male thinks it is. And women have always been taken for granted by political parties. And in general women and girls just aren't seen to be as important than other people. And women saying no is an outrage.

It won't help because these people don't care about this stuff.

Which is why most of them won't answer straight questions. They don't believe it but they have to stick to their line. They don't believe it so they can't explain or defend their position. That's why it's always slogans/ incorrect statements and stats, and deflection.

'I think it's just a case of getting him to think carefully about these issues. Also, point out that realistically he will never be negatively impacted by treating mtf transitioners as women. He will never be disadvantaged by them in sport. He will never be in a WiSpa situation. It's easy to give away other people's rights and protections.'

Sorry but no. No one in their right mind honestly thinks that males should be in women's prisons. Let alone males in prison for committing violent and/ or sex offences against women.

It won't work.

This isn't about logic reason common sense compassion etc.

It's about confirming adherence to a belief system. That's the long and short of it.

MrsSkyler does your DS understand the basics, that women being equal to men doesn’t mean they are the same? Does he understand that the average DH has so much more upper body strength than the average DW? —Would he like to arm wrestle?— And that is why we women ask for protection?

Thank you all, for yours replies.

Really struggling with this and will continue with our conversation tomorrow.

Hello Mrs Skyler

Just my opinion.

18yo know the difference between the sexes. They really do.

They know that women and girls are generally smaller than men and boys.

They hear the news and if they don't have a clue about the things happening to women and girls because of their sex, around the world then they would have to live as a hermit.

They know what male and female are when it comes to who they are attracted to. I can't imagine that many young men that age would never have seen porn. Men/ women. Biology. Not gender identity.

They know that if one of their friends has unprotected PIV sex with a young woman there is a risk she will become pregnant.

Of course they do.

When they are wanting to find someone that fancy and who fancies them back, to date or whatever.

They are interested in those of the sex they fancy. And if bisexual than attracted to males and females. Both sexes. Not xyz and y genders.

If a person operated on gender rather than sex. How would that work anyway. Gender identity is infernal. You can't see it. External appearance may give a clue but it's not good to assume. So if you are heterosexual defined by stonewall as same gender attracted. That means that if you identify as a man. Then you need to somehow find out the gender identity of potential partners before you know whether you are attracted to them or not? That's not how it works for 99% of the population and never has.

In the end though teenagers have always been of the opinion that they know everything, that they are the first generation to understand xyz. That their parents are idiots who just don't get how it is for young people. Etc etc

This is normal for teenagers.

On this topic though. And I note on here it's generally arguing with mums. Ok this is MN so maybe skewed but where are the dads in this?

This topic though to argue with your mother about is particularly galling.

I'd say look. I am a woman. You are not. I have been around much longer than you and have seen heard and experienced plenty in that time.

As a grown woman I am telling you that-

Putting male criminals convicted of violence/ sex offences against women in women's prisons is obviously a massive risk for the women. And they can't get away.

Having males go into any and all areas that are set aside for females, based on an invisible feeling in their head. Areas that have always been separated by sex for good reason. Is obviously asking for trouble. Due to the very large number of creeps about.

Etc etc.

If that's not going to work/ you've been through that.

Then ask him to be honest as to whether all the boys in his class would have been totally comfortable getting changed for swimming/ PE. With a fellow student they have known as a girl for 4 years. Not embarrassed? How would it feel for a boy who had a crush on them for ages? Wouldn't it be really just bizarre to have a classmate in there with a developed female body?

Ask him if he knows how women are treated under the taleban and how do they know who to treat as a woman/ girl. Just ask him. Because it's got nothing to do with how anyone feels inside.

Tell him that women and girls experience loads of words/ actions/ assaults from horrible and or creepy men. Say this is why single sex things exist. Say you're going to turn it around. Ask him how he can guarantee that gender > sex will have no impact on the comfort/ safety of women and girls when they are in situations where they are undressed etc.

And if he still says nope.

Just say. We disagree. I am not interested in trying to explain the differences in male and female, or why women and girls are vulnerable to dodgy men.

There is no point in us talking about this any more. We'll have to agree to disagree and keep off the topic.

Thank you NiceGerbil, much appreciated.

(Incidentally, Dad and I are of the same opinion, just the three of us stuck at home for months on end until recently! So lots of discussion)