Nicola Sturgeon shouts “shame on you” to Tory MSP who mentioned last week’s demo

[Letsnotdothisplease]

twitter.com/forwomenscot/status/1435662934743687169?s=21

Thanks for the link Waitwhat23, that was a good write up of the issue. And this sums up the issue perfectly:

The First Minister is determined to make her nation a global poster child for progressive, tolerant government. There are many women in Scotland today who would argue she is doing precisely the opposite.

Any feminist worthy of the label would seek to sit down with those women and find out why they disagree. But she has not, to date, been willing to do so.

Just thinking about changing birth certificates. If I was borne in Sussex to Scottish parents, lived in Scotland for 35 years, and self id in Scotland my birth certificate is still an extract of the sussex register. How does the Scottish Government change that?

Where’s my basic energy tariff you promised in 2017. Sturgeon

Where ?

The judgement on their named person scheme: "The first thing that a totalitarian regime tries to do is get at the children, to distance them from the subversive, varied influences of their families, and indoctrinate them in their rulers' view of the world"

Any concern that I now raise wrt biologically intact males seeking female only spaces or how I find it problematic that being a ‘woman’ can rest on a feeling is immediately dismissed as being ‘Tory’ by my DC and DC’s friends.

Regardless of the fact that I’ve never voted and would never vote Tory. Unfortunately, there is little to be gained from trying to discuss these issues because it only drives my DC further down the rabbit hole towards TRA online voices to find counter arguments.

It is, however, disorienting that it seems only to be the Tory party that recognises my concerns. Can’t get my head around that

@Tibtom

Just thinking about changing birth certificates. If I was borne in Sussex to Scottish parents, lived in Scotland for 35 years, and self id in Scotland my birth certificate is still an extract of the sussex register. How does the Scottish Government change that?

There's no such thing as "Scottish parents" as "Scottish" isn't a nationality. If you were born in Sussex the fact your parents were born in Scotland/ think of themselves as "Scottish" is irrelevant. The relationship between your parents and you is governed by English law. Should you or they move permanently to Scotland, Scots law will apply going forward.

There are differences between Scots law and English law in some fairly major areas- inheritance and family law is different; Scots law gives 16 year olds far more autonomy in Scotland; divorce is different (and easier) and succession to property is different.

If you were born in Sussex but move to Scotland on a permanent basis (become domiciled) Scots Law will apply to you. Hence Gretna Green marriages (which don't require much in the way of residency)

If you were married in England you can get divorced in Scotland if you meet the residence requirements. On your death if you are domiciled in Scotland the succession to your property will be dealt with under Scots Law regardless of your being born in Sussex.

The statute dealing with registration of births in Scotland is The Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages (Scotland) Act 1965. England and Wales (but not NI) isThe Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953 (I think).

Holyrood cannot possibly have power to order the Sussex registrar to re-issue a certificate issued under the English legislation.

Of course the separatist argument will be some sort of nonsense about everyone's welcome here and you can apply for Scottish citizenship . That might get you a Scottish passport but it still can't force the registrar in Sussex to issue a new birth certificate.

KimikosNightmare I think you will find an awful lot of people in Scotland, both separatist and unionist, would contest your statement that there is no such thing as Scottish parents or presumably being Scottish.

But that misses my point which was regardless of residency or heritage, if my birth was registered in Sussex then the Scottish Parliament cannot require Sussex registrars to change my birth certificate. So how would a Scottish-only reformed GRC work for anyone born outside Scotland?

Oh my, if it turns out to be a reserved issue, that will be interesting. I always thought this issue would take down the SNP eventually but this is a whole new angle.

@ScreamingMeMe

Good to hear Waitwhat23 !

Even more from Janey Godley. Use of the following slurs in tweets and voice recordings (!)

The p slur for people of Pakistani origin
The p slur for gay men
The g slur for people from the traveller community / of Romany origin

She even combined the two p slurs in one tweet.

I didn't think it could get any worse and then it did.

Those terms have always been racist and homophobic and JG knows that and knew it when she used them. 'Comedy' is no fucking excuse either, there is nothing remotely funny about those terms.

That's the level of language and terminology you'd expect to be used by racist thugs at a BNP meeting, what company you align yourself with JG.

I note JG has locked her Twitter account now, wonder why, what else could be found?

@Tibtom

KimikosNightmare I think you will find an awful lot of people in Scotland, both separatist and unionist, would contest your statement that there is no such thing as Scottish parents or presumably being Scottish.

But that misses my point which was regardless of residency or heritage, if my birth was registered in Sussex then the Scottish Parliament cannot require Sussex registrars to change my birth certificate. So how would a Scottish-only reformed GRC work for anyone born outside Scotland?

You were referring to legal issues. Scottish is not a nationality. If your parents were domiciled in England and you were born in England, English law applies. The fact your parents might claim "Scottishness" is irrelevant to the point you asked.

So far as your actual legal point- I have covered that. Holyrood can't rewrite English legislation. It's not even a case of it being a reserved matter. It would be an interference with the law of England and Wales.

@MiladyBerserko

Oh my, if it turns out to be a reserved issue, that will be interesting. I always thought this issue would take down the SNP eventually but this is a whole new angle.

It's not a reserved issue. The existing GRA is already one passed in Scotland by the Scottish Parliament.

At the time of legislating for the original GRA, there was however adamant insistence that the law North and South of the border must be identical in order to avoid any issues. Hence both Acts were identical when passed.

The Scottish one has since been amended to remove the spousal exit clause. Transwidows in Scotland no longer have its protection.

You are all right of course that cross-border issues will make this blow up big time - it's simply unworkable to have self-id enshrined in law in Scotland while this does not happen in England. I expect that a reformed GRA would be found unlawful on judicial review given the fact that a unilateral Scottish reform would see Scottish women see their rights under the Equality Act infringed in a way that English women would not.

(Not that being told their intended law would be unlawful has ever stopped this government.)

@ScreamingMeMe

Good to hear Waitwhat23 !

Even more from Janey Godley. Use of the following slurs in tweets and voice recordings (!)

The p slur for people of Pakistani origin
The p slur for gay men
The g slur for people from the traveller community / of Romany origin

She even combined the two p slurs in one tweet.

I don’t use Twitter so have only ever come across JG on forwarded “funny” clips. The language she’s been using…Chernobyl etc, and what’s mentioned above: absolutely no justification and in extremely poor taste. And not remotely funny. I’m guessing this will be her demise.

Nicola Sturgeon on Good Morning Scotland today:

'Women's concerns on GRA "sincerely held" but "not valid'

twitter.com/wornoutmumhack/status/1436232096067035140

Sturgeon is on record as seeking to widen the franchise for Indyref2 to include people born in Scotland but resident outside it.

Perhaps she might try to go for vice-versa while she's at it to disenfranchise any uppity Edinburgh-based authors?

I'm sure Sturgeon would love to restrict voting to SNP members only.

@ArabellaScott

I'm sure Sturgeon would love to restrict voting to SNP members only.

That's post-independence.

I’m guessing this will be her demise.

It seems SNP has determined that Godley is redeemed:

I believe in redemption. I don't believe anyone deserves to be "cancelled" if they understand what they got wrong and try to improve. Often, those people become the most effective advocates for progress and decency.

twitter.com/MhairiHunter/status/1435937457065897989

Plus: twitter.com/MhairiHunter/status/1435898134924861442

Article in the Scotsman, MP John Mason calls for 'civilised' debate.

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/gender-recognition-act-reform-both-sides-of-the-debate-need-to-learn-not-to-hate-each-other-gina-davidson-3377645

• I really don't think Mhairi Hunter is helping the situation, tbh. Someone take the shovel off her.

@ArabellaScott

- I really don't think Mhairi Hunter is helping the situation, tbh. Someone take the shovel off her.

No leave it her. The more light on SNP hypocrisy the better.

'Women's concerns on GRA "sincerely held" but "not valid'

In which case NS / the Scottish Government will have no issue in setting out simply and clearly the answers to women's concerns. That really is all they have to do and this whole problem will go away. The problem is they can't ...

Yes. That’s it. Silencing women is not the way sturgeon should be doing it

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

'Women's concerns on GRA "sincerely held" but "not valid'

In which case NS / the Scottish Government will have no issue in setting out simply and clearly the answers to women's concerns. That really is all they have to do and this whole problem will go away. The problem is they can't ...

Feeling very akin to what has been in process with WEP - we know what women think, they're wrong, so we won't hold/listen to the results of a consultation.

WEP and SNP seem to be in lockstep for their solution being "We'll engage in on-going discussion and re-education of wrongthink even if it leads us into defending the indefensible because that's how committed we are."

'You're wrong, but we won't tell you why.'

That's going to go down well.

www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19571909.nicola-sturgeon-dismisses-concerns-gender-reforms-not-valid/

' “There's been two public consultations. We have listened very carefully.

“But you know we had a manifesto commitment to move forward with this.

“Gender recognition reform is about changing an existing process to make it less degrading, intrusive and traumatic for one of the most stigmatised minorities in our society and I think that is a good thing to do.

“It does not change in any way shape or form, legal protections that women have - and that's something that's very important to me as a lifelong feminist.

“We shouldn't forget there are big threats to women's safety and women's rights.

“They come from, sexism, misogyny, principally from abusive and predatory men, and we see lawmakers in other parts of the world, Texas, for example, trying to take away the right of women to control their own bodies [with an effective abortion ban].

“So we should focus on the real threats to women, not the threats that, while I appreciate that some of these views are very sincerely held, in my view, are not valid.” '

'However Ms Sturgeon also suggested that, with some SNP ministers uneasy about the change, there could be a free vote at Holyrood on it, rather than a whipped one. '